Finance Committee on Oct. 29th, 2012

[Tarik Brahmi, NDP, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Through you, I would just like to ask some questions of the two witnesses who spoke about the importance of education.

They mentioned to what extent there was a disconnect between the skills available among the people looking for work and the skills being sought by businesses that cannot develop because they don't have enough qualified staff.

Ms. Robinson, you fairly rightly mentioned that there are two aspects that the federal government should act upon. I will stay in the context of the budget because this is the finance committee and because it is important to focus on these issues. So there were scholarships. You also mentioned something interesting about tax credits for businesses willing to help students who take this training in order to improve the labour market.

Could you tell us more about this?

[Nobina Robinson]

I didn't get into too much discussion in my statement today about the scholarship issue, but it is in our submission, and this is the case. Currently the federal government has supports for undergraduates, but when you get into the fine print, it's for university undergraduates. There is an industrial undergraduate student research award program at the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council, and college undergraduates of four-year college degrees are to date not yet able to apply for that, yet they are the ones working on applied research and development for companies.

For me, the scholarships for undergraduates are an inequity. Treat undergraduates equally. A college undergraduate from a publicly approved four-year degree is as important and as relevant as a university undergraduate. Similarly, if the government considers funding a new undergraduate scholarship program for international undergraduates, my concern is that it be open to undergraduate programs in colleges and polytechnics as well. So it's a question of equity on that one.

On your second one, I think we need to narrow it down. The issue here is for the world of apprentices, so this is the world of the various Red Seal trades. We have said that the country created an employer job creation tax credit of $2,000. That's getting the apprentice in the door. We believe that if the issue is how you get the apprentice to complete, then we should probably incentivize employers to get that apprentice to complete their certification under their watch and offer a tax credit for an employer who sees that apprentice through to certification. Does that make sense?

[Tarik Brahmi, NDP, Saint-Jean, QC]

Yes.

Mr. Buy, do you have anything to add?

[Serge Buy]

Yes, absolutely.

In fact, there are people looking for work who want to improve their skills, and there are employers who are desperately looking for employees. There is also a certain amount of snobbery where we must only support certain programs offered by a given university for a certain number of weeks, and so on.

I have no objection to continued support for those programs. However, if you are training an engineer to work on an oil rig, but there is no one to install the pipes, the plumbing and the electricity, that engineer will remain without work. In Alberta, in Ontario, in Quebec and in the west, some sectors need people whose skills can be applied rapidly, be it in private colleges, polytechnic schools or elsewhere. What's important is that it be done rapidly. These programs should be easily recognized. To do this, it should only require a very simple change in the budget. It would involve recognizing programs where the number of weeks of learning is not as long. This investment wouldn't cost the Canadian government a thing.

[Tarik Brahmi, NDP, Saint-Jean, QC]

Ms. Robinson, you also mentioned—

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Scott Brison]

I think that's it for time. Merci.

Now we have Mr. Jean.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses who attended here today.

I'm interested in the Red Seal program, and of course the situation regarding getting people from one part of the country to another. First of all, Red Seal, I believe, gives taxpayers the best return on investment if they see those people through.

I was very interested to hear about the tax credit for employers. I think that's a great idea. How would you see that working, exactly? Could you give me 20 or 30 seconds of information?

[Nobina Robinson]

We're trying to deal with the issue around poaching, which we haven't talked about either.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

I understand that.

[Nobina Robinson]

Where an employer, a company, has a tradesperson who's a third-level apprentice in that Red Seal trade and needs to go back to that block release training in education, but doesn't want to let that person go because business is tight, you have to keep working, and for the student there is no incentive to give up the job to go back for training...if that employer knew that if you get him through to the next level you'll get another tax credit, then we think that might deal with some of that completion problem.

It's not a solution for all things, but I think part of our problem with post-secondary education in general in Canada is that we think one size fits all. With 300,000 apprentices currently enrolled, we're finding there are different solutions for the different problems with this apprenticeship issue. One kind of solution works for a young apprentice, but the average apprentice is 25 years old. The older apprentice who is carrying all sorts of debt may not be able to go back to complete, so let's get the employer to take ownership of that problem too.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

That's a great idea.

Mr. Buy, you also mentioned tax credits in some form relating to having people complete. You talked specifically about the grant program, of course, and making them eligible for that. I do understand the Canada grants program is for the lower- to middle-income earner, so it's not specifically for a return on investment to taxpayers, I guess.

Would you see it as better to expand the loan program than to try to expand the grant program in particular? It's not made for that type of career path.

[Serge Buy]

The loan program is there. If you are going to look at the loan program, I think the expansion should be in the amounts that are given. It is my belief that at this point the federal government has not increased that for a number of years, and all the costs are rising. Everywhere throughout this country, tuition costs are rising and students are finding themselves in a difficult place. I think if you're looking at the loan program you're looking at this, and you should be looking at increasing the amounts that are potentially given.

If you're looking at the grant, I think the simple solution is to change to fewer than 60 weeks.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

The FCM, of course, is very interesting. You appreciated the economic action plan. You came out with rave reviews for this government from 2006, when you first....

You talked quite a bit about the $123 billion infrastructure deficit across the country. We haven't solved that infrastructure deficit, but how would you describe, in two sentences, the government's performance from 2006 to today in relation to, first of all, our cooperation with provinces, territories, and municipalities, things like making the gas tax permanent for municipalities? Just the rollout, the one-page application form for infrastructure projects—how would you describe the overall program in two or three sentences?

[Karen Leibovici]

In two or three sentences, we've appreciated the partnership and we look forward to continuing it.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

And the success of the program?

[Karen Leibovici]

The programs have been successful in meeting some of the infrastructure needs across this country, but we need to do more.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Exactly, and indeed if you'd comment further, if the government does come forward, after negotiations and consultations, which of course we're doing now, with a suite of programs that are similar in nature to the economic action plan, to the economic stimulus programs, etc., how would your organization feel about that?

[Karen Leibovici]

Obviously what we're looking at is continuing the dialogue and the partnership and looking at meeting the needs of Canadian municipalities across the country.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Do you think at that stage, when we come out with that program and you applaud it—hopefully—that all levels of government, including all parties in this place, should support that program as well and vote for it?

[Karen Leibovici]

We're very hopeful that that will occur. In fact, it has to occur.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

It must have been disappointing for your organization seeing the last votes on the economic action plan and the NDP's position on that, voting against it every time.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Scott Brison]

Okay, thank you.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

I see you're nodding your head in agreement. Thank you very much.

[Karen Leibovici]

I wouldn't want you to interpret anything in that.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.