Finance Committee on Nov. 19th, 2012

[Christopher Smillie]

Chris Charlton introduced this bill, maybe eight or nine years ago, as a way to get the discussion going on mobility. It currently is in the mix in terms of private members business. She has told me that if the government decides to put some of the spirit of her bill into a budget, she'd gladly withdraw it. It's not a partisan issue; it's to get discussion going about mobility in the skilled trades.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

I see.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Merci, Monsieur Mai.

We'll go to Mr. Van Kesteren, please.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you all for being here, and what an excellent panel it is, too. There are so many questions I could ask.

I do want to go to Mr. Liss, though. You talked about a data infrastructure program, and it sounds similar to the knowledge infrastructure program our government has introduced. Can you explain a little more about how it would work? Would you suppose it would be temporary funding as opposed to a long-term measure, and what would be the cost? Also, have you any idea where we could pull the funds from? Have you thought about that?

[Dr. Steven Liss]

I think it's a particularly important point with respect to where the future lies around data. The government makes significant investments in infrastructure to support data, computing, analytics, and there's no doubt that an ongoing need to refresh and renew that is a subject of great concern and advocacy through competitive funding programs that currently exist.

What is really primarily and most importantly needed is a national framework to support a system. It really is about an integration of all the pieces of a rather large landscape of various different parts and bits that aren't all, what I would think arguably, well connected and integrated. For example, talking to the Minister of Environment and Natural Resources in the Northwest Territories about the sheer volume of data and information that's so relevant to the socio-economic conditions of extractive industries, climate change, and so forth—we're drinking from the fire hose. They're looking at support across Canada for using that data for all sorts of policy and economic development purposes. We have a similar scenario unfolding across the country, as well as the need to be much more globally connected with respect to our data and access to that data internationally.

It's really about a system to understand how best to integrate and to effectively use our resources, which we do make investments in, more efficiently and more effectively.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

You talked about building partnerships, and you identified the small and the medium-sized businesses. You know our government is very supportive of public-private partnerships. Can you go into more detail about how these have been established and the results you've seen, how successful they've been? How can we get SMEs and the private sector more involved in these types of partnerships?

[Dr. Steven Liss]

Well, you're beginning to see some of this unfolding with respect to data and analytics with the investments that large companies like IBM have been making to support innovative research, encouraging the technology development they're investing in to support and connect to small and medium-sized enterprises to be able to access the type of infrastructure. That's one illustration.

I think of the investments that have come through FedDev Ontario, the centres of excellence in commercialization and research, and the many examples of innovation taking place across Canada with respect to partnerships. The access to infrastructure in post-secondary institutions, both in colleges and universities, and also the mobility of young people between the respective institutions and organizations are other examples. In that context, I think that's an area where Canada isn't as well positioned as it could be with respect to the porosity of our organizations and the movement of people between educational institutions, industry, and government.

The other thing to keep in mind is that the average age of an entrepreneur in the United States, if we want to look at that as a model, is 39. There's a lot learned between the time somebody exits some formal schooling at the post-secondary level and the time they become an entrepreneur.

I look at what is happening now with respect to innovative programs and entrepreneurship to get young people more engaged and more involved and aware of the opportunities. But there are some gaps with respect to available capital in Canada and an entrepreneurial spirit that is limited by that available resource, and the risk that is often seen to be a very high price to pay for entrepreneurship in this country.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

I only have a few seconds. You mentioned 39 years as the average age in the United States. What is it in Canada? Do you know?

[Dr. Steven Liss]

I suspect it's probably similar, but it doesn't happen, really, out of school. We have to have the right environment to encourage the types of experiences and the environment that make people evolve to become entrepreneurs.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, Mr. Van Kesteren.

Mr. Marston, please.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Cohen, I had originally planned to start with someone else, but your presentation caught me. In my family we have dealt with post-partum depression and with schizophrenia. We had one family member who was medicated and hospitalized on and off for 50 years. What comes out of this is the awareness of the many places in which there's a shortfall in the system.

There are many reasons for that, and we're not in the blame game. I would just ask the members opposite to please give particular consideration to this presentation. I'm not going to ask you a question, because what you delivered to us was comprehensive, and your needs are well laid out. I just ask the members opposite to please take the time to look at it.

Mr. Smillie, do you ever work with the Ontario Training and Adjustment Board?

[Christopher Smillie]

Did you say the Ontario Training and Adjustment Board? I never—

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Where are you from, sir? I'm sorry.

[Christopher Smillie]

I live in Ottawa now, but I'm from Oakville originally.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

During the 1990s, we had the Ontario Training and Adjustment Board. It was a facility put together by an NDP government, and it worked with the federal government of the day to start laying plans for retraining of workers. It was a model that we thought was really exceptional. There were changes made when there was a change of government in Ontario, but it was a model that I think could be revisited here.

But if you have not worked with it, I'll move on to talk to you about the current reliance on temporary workers.

We have a situation in which several hundred thousand temporary foreign workers are being brought into the country. How is that affecting your members' ability to do their jobs?

[Christopher Smillie]

I'll speak to the skilled trades. I can't speak to some of the other sectors.

In our slice of the economy, the temporary foreign worker program is used effectively as a complementary HR tool. There are situations in which people are brought in from all around the world to work on construction sites. At the end of the day, in construction the numbers are...I think last year it was 4,600, in our trades. It's an economy with about 1.5 million workers in it.

We represent the skilled trades. Really, the top source country for these people has been the United States. So far the experience with the temporary foreign workers, so to speak, from the U.S. has been good. They're trained just as we are, they speak our language—

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

You're talking mainly about the skilled level.

[Christopher Smillie]

Yes.

It's tough in our trades, because the work is highly specialized, and these folks only exist in a few places in the world.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

One thing that was evident when Ms. Glover was speaking to you was that cooperation goes back and forth between the building trades and the government. In light of Bill C-377.... It wasn't an awkward moment, but it was a little bit on the surprising side. We've heard so much negativity from the government side relative to unions and so on while we've been studying Bill C-377.

What was your reaction? When you first came in here, you made the point of your membership being voluntary. I thought that was very important.

[Christopher Smillie]

I had a bad dream that I had said bad things about Bill C-377 today.

At the end of the day, the partnership we have in place with the Government of Canada on such things as Helmets to Hardhats or with Minister Flaherty, Minister Finley, or Minister Oliver, etc., are based on an earned friendship.

As to the Bill C-377 stuff, you can read our testimony from October 25 as to where we are with that. But I want to make sure we don't get bogged down in that stuff and that we make sure the budget focuses on skills policy.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

That was my point, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Yes, we are stretching relevance to the maximum point here.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

But that cooperation was the important point I wanted to make.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

You have about 30 seconds, Mr. Marston.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Do I?

Mr. McAlpine—in 30 seconds, sir—we've had foreign workers raised here. It strikes me as logical to try to retain the foreign students we have in this country as citizens.