Evidence of meeting #11 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was process.
A video is available from Parliament.
11:35 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
Thank you very much.
Thank you, Ms. Nash.
We'll go to Mr. Saxton, please.
11:35 a.m.
Conservative
Andrew Saxton Conservative North Vancouver, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thanks to our witnesses for being here today.
My first question is for the CLC representative, Mr. Yussuff.
Mr. Yussuff, in your opening remarks you said that due to proposed changes, the government can choose whatever service it likes as essential.
But there are definitions of essential service in place, so surely those definitions are not going to be changed.
11:35 a.m.
Secretary-Treasurer, Canadian Labour Congress
I was responding to the President of the Treasury Board, who was interviewed on CBC here in Ottawa. When he was asked to describe how he would determine what portion of the workforce will be designated essential, he couldn't answer the question. He said he will decide when the legislation is passed sometime down the road.
So I can only rely on his statement that he's supposed to assure us as to how he's going to make the determination. He has yet to state publicly how he's going to make the determination.
11:35 a.m.
Conservative
Andrew Saxton Conservative North Vancouver, BC
But there are definitions in place of essential service.
November 26th, 2013 / 11:35 a.m.
Secretary-Treasurer, Canadian Labour Congress
There are definitions, of course. It's been under the Canada Labour Code—
11:35 a.m.
Conservative
Andrew Saxton Conservative North Vancouver, BC
So I think your statement is a bit misleading when you say—
11:35 a.m.
Secretary-Treasurer, Canadian Labour Congress
—and I am very familiar with that.
Certainly I think my colleagues can speak directly to the public service in terms of how you designate that.
11:35 a.m.
Conservative
Andrew Saxton Conservative North Vancouver, BC
Right. So your statement that the government can choose whatever it likes as essential is a bit misleading when there are definitions of what's essential in place. They're in the code of...subsection 119(1) of the Public Service Labour Relations Act.
My next question is for Gregory Thomas of the Canadian Taxpayers Federation.
Gregory, welcome. First of all, Bill C-4 will require that all forms of compensation are taken into account in the determination of fair compensation. This includes more than just wages; it includes other benefits that employees receive.
In your calculations of total overall compensation, you also obviously took into consideration other benefits in addition to just wages. Do you believe this will achieve fairness for both the employee and the employer, to take into consideration all compensation?
11:35 a.m.
Federal Director, Canadian Taxpayers Federation
Yes. It is an unfortunate aspect of the way government, so far, has chosen to describe the way it compensates government employees, that a misleading impression is created. Government employees have a substantial array of collectively bargained benefits: pension entitlements, sick leave, personal days, extended medical and disability benefits.
Taken together, as the Parliamentary Budget Officer pointed out, the present costs are in the neighbourhood of $115,000 per employee, on average. Something in the neighbourhood of $75 an hour is what it costs Canadians to have every government employee at work.
Sorry to take so long to answer your question, but yes, I think this will be a very fair way to portray this.
11:40 a.m.
Conservative
Andrew Saxton Conservative North Vancouver, BC
Thank you.
Now, at a time when fiscal responsibility is paramount, in your opinion how significant is it that arbitrators be required to take into consideration Canada's fiscal circumstances when making their determinations?
11:40 a.m.
Federal Director, Canadian Taxpayers Federation
It's absolutely paramount. We have a situation in Ontario where we have a province that's the most indebted of any provincial or state government in North America, largely as a consequence of arbitrated settlements for government employees at the provincial and municipal levels.
The Government of Canada is in a difficult spot. It's trying to bargain with federal government employees who are seeing provincial government employees and local government employees...you know, ticket takers on the Toronto Transit Commission earning six-figure incomes. It's outrageous. It's ridiculous.
Absolutely arbitrators need to be cognizant of the government's ability to pay.
11:40 a.m.
Conservative
Andrew Saxton Conservative North Vancouver, BC
Thank you.
My next question is for Benjamin Dachis at the C.D. Howe Institute regarding dispute resolution. As it stands now, I understand that with two resolution processes for employment-related grievances, individuals could technically shop around for the resolution they wanted. Not only does this lengthen the process, it also creates duplication in some cases.
My question to you is this. It seems logical to have one grievance, one review process. Is this consistent with mechanisms in the private sector? And have they been effective?
11:40 a.m.
Senior Policy Analyst, C.D. Howe Institute
We've done no work on that, so I have no comment.
11:40 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
Thank you, Mr. Saxton.
We'll go to Mr. Cuzner, please, for your round.
11:40 a.m.
Liberal
Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. It's great to be back here and to represent the C team.
I want to seize on something Ms. Benson said. As a member of Parliament for 13 years, I've never seen as much anxiety in some sectors of the public service as I've seen now, where those who are applying for employment insurance benefits are now waiting six and seven weeks, and eight weeks is not uncommon. At one time they used to wait three weeks.
It's because those processing those claims have been cut. There have been 600 positions cut, and those who are left behind are dealing with people who are trying to feed their families and make the decision between filling their prescription, filling their oil tank, or filling their fridge. The anxiety level of the whole experience has been elevated to a degree. It has to have an impact on the person who makes that call when you have a mother crying on the other end of the phone, wondering when her cheque is going to be processed. I think that has more to do with if there's any ill feeling within the public service. You might want to make a comment on that.
I know you see it as well with the marine communications. You might want to comment on that.
11:40 a.m.
National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada
Thank you very much.
Certainly I appreciate that in terms of the EI, but there are many other departments that are suffering from that as well. We're doing a lot of work with respect to mental health in the workplace, because you have what I call the survivor syndrome. I don't know what others call it. When you're in a workplace of, say, 20 and you are processing EI cheques, old age security cheques, or child tax benefit—those benefits that Canadians deserve to receive on a timely basis—and then you go down to 5 individuals trying to do all of that work, it's almost impossible.
Certainly, in terms of services, though, I invite you to view our veterans video. You have veterans crying out in this country because you're closing Veterans Affairs offices right across the country. They are having now to travel five hours to see their caseworker. What's happening is just wrong. Our members are feeling that impact. Where they have worked weekly with a veteran who has post-traumatic stress disorder, that individual is no longer going to get the help they need.
It's not just EI, but certainly I thank you for that, because the person who finally receives their employment insurance cheque, as late as it is, also has to worry that the food on their table has been inspected and is safe for human consumption.
We have problems in this country.
11:45 a.m.
Liberal
Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS
Absolutely. Thank you.
Mr. Dachis, if you could elaborate on the study, did you do any international research? You said 60% of the times across-table negotiations end up with resolution. Are we similar to other countries in that regard?
11:45 a.m.
Senior Policy Analyst, C.D. Howe Institute
Compared to the United States, for example, our strike incidence is higher. There's no question.
11:45 a.m.
Senior Policy Analyst, C.D. Howe Institute
It's difficult to compare. There's a technical issue in terms of the types of strikes they look at versus the ones we look at in our data. We look at all strikes, whereas they only have data on large strikes. It's very difficult to have that comparison.
Our work is as close as you can get to an international comparison because provinces have complete jurisdiction over labour relations for their public employees. So you can compare nurses in New Brunswick, who have a completely different labour relations regime, to, say, those in Alberta, to public sector employees in Saskatchewan.
It's good to ask this.
