Finance Committee on Oct. 29th, 2013

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

I call this meeting to order.

This is meeting number two of the Standing Committee on Finance.

Colleagues, we have a busy day today; we have a three-hour meeting. In the first hour we are dealing with three motions. In the second hour we have the Governor of the Bank of Canada for his report on his monetary policy update. In the third hour we have the new Parliamentary Budget Officer with respect to the economic and fiscal outlook, and this is his first appearance before the finance committee.

I would call on you so that we can try to finish these three motions within the first hour. That would be very helpful. You'll see before you that debate is resuming on a motion of Mr. Andrew Saxton.

Colleagues, you should have three motions in front of you: a motion by Ms. Nash, one by Mr. Rankin, and one by Mr. Saxton. Does everyone have these three motions? I'm going to suggest that we start with the Nash motion, then move to the Rankin motion, and then resume debate on the Saxton motion.

I will go to Ms. Nash to introduce her motion and I will give her the floor.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll just read my motion.

That the Standing Committee on Finance a) undertake a study of youth employment across Canada, including: i) the factors contributing to a high rate of youth unemployment, ii) the economic impact of youth un- and underemployment, iii) the benefits and costs of paid and unpaid internships, and iv) options to provide greater labour protections to interns; b) that the Committee make recommendations to the Government of Canada to improve youth employment outcomes in Canada; and c) that the Committee report its findings to the House of Commons.

Mr. Chair, we've been very concerned, and we have expressed concern in the House on several occasions about the level of youth unemployment and concern that we're wasting the talents and abilities of young people who aren't getting a full toehold into the Canadian economy. Frankly, it is a challenge to our overall economy that this is an underutilized group in our society, and that will have economic fallout for years to come, as studies have indicated. We think it's important for this committee to take a look at what's happening with youth employment across the country.

Of late, there has been great concern about the issue of unpaid internships and how young people, in order to get a toehold in the workforce, are in fact accepting unpaid work for which they normally ought to be reimbursed, as other workers are. We think it's worth studying in detail because this is a pressing issue in our economy and our society today.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you very much, Ms. Nash.

I'll take Mr. Saxton as the next speaker, please.

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to thank my colleague, Peggy Nash, for bringing this forward to committee.

The government agrees that this is a very important issue, and one that's worth studying. Therefore, we would agree to study it.

We have a proposed amendment to Ms. Nash's motion that I'd like to circulate to committee members. But in essence, we agree with the study of youth employment. I'd just like to read my proposed amendment to Ms. Nash's motion, and that is:

That the Standing Committee on Finance: (a) undertake a study of youth employment across Canada; (b) that the Committee make recommendations to the Government of Canada to improve youth employment outcomes in Canada; and (c) that the Committee report its findings to the House of Commons.

I'll now distribute this in writing in both official languages through the clerk, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, Mr. Saxton. We'll have the amendment distributed.

Next, I have Mr. Jean. We still have Mr. Brison listed.

The debate will be on the amendment.

Mr. Saxton, are you finished?

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

I simply want to say in conclusion that our government recognizes the importance of youth employment. That is why in Budget 2013 we've allocated significant funds toward apprenticeship and other internship programs to help youth get back to work. As a result, we agree that this is an issue of importance to Canadians and we agree with Ms. Nash that we could do a study in this committee on this subject.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

I will go to Mr. Jean, please.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Yes, I agree. I saw the original motion by Ms. Nash and I didn't think it was a bad idea, though I thought it was too restrictive in its approach, particularly in relation to item ii), unemployment and the contributing factors. I simply thought it was too restrictive in its approach. I think there's a much better solution. We have done some good things, I know, as a government with the knowledge infrastructure program and some different trade training, etc., but I don't think it's enough. I believe we can do a lot more. I think Ms. Nash's motion is a good one in substance, but I certainly think the amendments made by Mr. Saxton would give us a better ability to be more broad in scope and not be restricted.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you. I'll go to Mr. Hsu and then Ms. Nash.

[Ted Hsu, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Thank you very much.

What the amendment essentially does is to take away words following “including”, so it takes away some specificity from the study. My sense is that there is always youth unemployment, but I think for the House of Commons, for Parliament, to be relevant, it should be discussing the current situation. The current situation is that since the great recession of 2008, employment has recovered for certain segments of the population but it hasn't recovered for youth. I believe that's why the motion from Ms. Nash refers to the high rate of youth unemployment. It's high relative to the fact that other age groups have not suffered to the same degree, age groups whose employment has rebounded from the great recession.

The second thing that I think is a bit more specific and important to address is the economic impact. Canada, like many other countries over the next 10 years or 20 years, will be having to deal with some very significant demographic changes. For that reason it is very important to recognize that youth unemployment and underemployment have particularly important economic impacts at this time in the history of the country. I think it's important to recognize this by including case ii) in the motion, and I think that is why Ms. Nash included it in the motion. Similarly for case iii) and case iv)—these are subjects that have been brought to the attention of Parliament in the last year or two. It is very timely, so including them in a motion will reassure young Canadians that their representatives in Ottawa, the ones who are paid for by their parents' taxes, are actually addressing the immediate concerns that they are seeing in their everyday lives.

This is why I believe, Mr. Chair, that eliminating these particular cases and leaving behind a rather vanilla motion is not a service to the young people of Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

We'll go to Ms. Nash now.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I thank Mr. Hsu for his support for the original motion. We certainly would like to examine the factors involved in youth unemployment and underemployment, and the whole issue of youth internships. I would like to ask Mr. Saxton a question. Because the amended motion would be less prescriptive than the original, I'm assuming that the committee would still have the ability to examine the factors in the original motion and that the study and the report would not exclude those factors--that we could still include them. I'm assuming from your motion it would include other factors as well.

I would simply like some clarification, please.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

On that, Mr. Saxton, go ahead, please.

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The focus of this friendly amendment is youth employment. The proposed study of this committee would be youth employment. Anything that falls under youth employment, in my opinion, would be something we could study, under this particular amendment.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

It would be quite broad and open and any topic that falls under it....

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

Youth employment is the topic and, therefore, anything that falls within youth employment would be acceptable under this motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Ms. Nash.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you for that clarification. So if the amendment does not limit the original intent of the motion—and I'm hearing you say that it doesn't and that, in fact, it amplifies it—as long as we're able to include those elements when we actually get down to the study, in the interest of getting all-party support, I would certainly welcome the amendment as a friendly amendment and would vote in favour.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Mr. Saxton has proposed an alternative motion, but he does have an amendment that simply removes certain lines from the motion. I think I should proceed in that fashion and have a vote on the amendment and then a vote on the motion.

All those in favour of the amendment by Mr. Saxton.

(Amendment agreed to)

All those in favour of the motion as amended.

(Motion as amended agreed to)

Thank you.

We will now move to the motion by Mr. Rankin.

[Murray Rankin, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I will be very succinct this morning. You have the motion in front of you. It is as follows:

That the Committee invite the Minister of National Revenue, and the appropriate officials, to appear before the Committee before Friday, December 6th, 2013, to discuss allegations of corruption at the Canada Revenue Agency (CRA) offices in Montreal, which appear to require immediate attention and serious action, and that the Minister be given up to ten (10) minutes for her opening statement; and that the meeting be televised.

As I think most Canadians will now know, the suspicions of corruption at the CRA offices in Montreal date back to 2005. In 2008 the RCMP undertook an investigation at the Montreal office. This criminal investigation was expanded in 2011 to include all CRA operations in the province of Quebec in 2011. As a consequence of this investigation, nine employees thus far have been dismissed, six of whom have been charged with such crimes as tax fraud, breach of trust, and extortion.

The newest revelation, that a CRA cheque for nearly $400,000 was delivered to a notorious Mafia leader, Mr. Nicolo Rizzuto, who at the time owed $1.5 million to the CRA, obviously gives rise to very serious concerns of ongoing mismanagement and possible corruption at the CRA.

It seems to me beyond doubt that if the allegations are proven, the integrity of our tax system is threatened, and many Canadians will have their confidence in our tax system shaken as a consequence.

Thus, Mr. Chair, it seems a very logical step to simply invite the minister to come to this committee and explain what's going on from her perspective. We would welcome a motion passed to that effect.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you very much, Mr. Rankin.

I have Mr. Keddy on the list.

[Gerald Keddy, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman, while I have some sympathy with Mr. Rankin's motion, there are a number of reasons, some of which he mentioned himself, why the committee shouldn't look at this motion at this time.

Certainly and I think of primary importance is the fact that these allegations result from an ongoing police investigation. This investigation started several years ago and is ongoing.

Mr. Rankin is absolutely correct: nine employees have already been fired in this matter. Six of those employees have been formally charged up to this point. CRA obviously has worked with the RCMP since day one of this investigation, and will continue to do so.

The fact that this is an ongoing investigation would make it entirely inappropriate to request information that could interfere with any ongoing police investigation.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you very much, Mr. Keddy.

I have Mr. Hoback and then back to Mr. Rankin.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Mr. Rankin, for bringing this motion forward. I think your intentions here are honourable in so many ways.

I have to agree with the parliamentary secretary that at this point in time it wouldn't be appropriate. I highlight that you mentioned in your speech that nine employees were already fired in this matter. Six of those have been formally charged. The CRA has been working with the RCMP since day one on this investigation and continues to do so.

Because this investigation is ongoing, it wouldn't be appropriate for the committee to interfere or to preclude anything in a hearing at this point. I would suggest that this motion be parked until we can look at it after all the investigations are done.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

Mr. Rankin.