Finance Committee on Feb. 27th, 2014

[Hugh Cumming]

I would just say that you may already be using it today, because it connects a number of financial institutions to over 120 Government of Canada applications. Our belief is that the solution is to reduce the number of places where people use credentials, and our briidge.net solution really is about doing that and creating bridges between financial institutions, governments, and consumers in a user-centric identity model.

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, Mr. Saxton.

I want to come back to this briefly with you, Mr. Hannah, and then we'll go to Mr. Rankin's motion.

You do make, it seems to me, a valid argument with respect to the shadow payment system in terms of it needing to be regulated and in terms of the need for an industry-wide standard that would apply to it. Just for clarity, it seems to me that the RCC recommendation that a standardized platform be defined for mobile applications, which I assume would apply to the shadow payment system as well through the FinPay committee, would address the concern you raised about the shadow payment system.

[Darren Hannah]

Could I nuance that? I don't think it's quite the same.

When we're talking about concerns in respect of the shadow payment system and the regulatory environment we want, we are concerned that they have sufficient standards for financial strengths. We are concerned that they have sufficient standards for management competence. We are concerned that they have sufficient standards for security and technology, consumer disclosure, and consumer redress. That's I think a different question from that of the technology that effects the transaction from point A to point B. It's a much broader question. Are the two in conflict? I don't know, but they're not quite exactly the same.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

I appreciate that clarification.

I want to thank all of our witnesses for being here. I believe that some of you were going to provide some further information. Please ensure it gets to me or the clerk. We will ensure all members get it.

We appreciate your participating in this very interesting study. We will excuse you at this point. We are going to go to a motion by a member. You're free to stay and watch an interesting debate, or you're free to leave, but thank you so much for being here with us today.

Colleagues, we are going to move to a motion by Mr. Rankin. He is going to present his motion.

[Murray Rankin, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I have given notice of this motion. The motion is:

That the Committee invite the Minister of National Revenue and the appropriate officials to appear before the Committee regarding the Supplementary Estimates (C) 2013-2014 on or before March 6, 2014 and that this meeting be televised.

Specifically, Chair, I'd like to discuss the section of the estimates that refers to voted appropriations, “Funding for the implementation and administration of various tax measures announced in the 2012 Federal Budget including Enhancing Transparency and Accountability for Charities...”. This is a horizontal item, which is an allocation of $6.3 million.

As I understand it, the supplementary (C)s refer to money for the investigation of charities, which of course has been the subject of enormous concern in the media and in the public. I believe that it is entirely legitimate to invite the minister to come and address the expenditures in that regard. I understand there may be some procedural concerns with the motion. If that is the case, I'm more than happy to amend the motion to alleviate those procedural concerns, to broaden it, for example, to just ask for a briefing by the minister, or whatever, under Standing Order 108(2).

In any event, without doubt, I think there are serious concerns and questions that arise from recent revelations that a number of the most prominent and respected environmental groups in the country are now being aggressively audited by the Canada Revenue Agency. This was first announced in a budget measure in 2012, when Minister of Natural Resources Oliver touted the $8-million plan to audit charities as cracking down on “environmental and other radical groups” that he claimed were undermining Canada's interests.

On the serious questions about this budgetary expense and about the appropriate use by the CRA of audits, I think Canadians deserve answers, which is why I'm moving this motion today. It's my hope that colleagues will agree with me and vote in favour of that motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, Mr. Rankin. The motion is in order procedurally, by the way.

On the speakers list, we'll go to Mr. Keddy, please.

[Gerald Keddy, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Rankin, I appreciate your motion and what you're asking for here. In my understanding—

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

It should be through the chair—

[Gerald Keddy, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS]

Mr. Chairman, through you, my understanding is that you are fairly new to this committee, as am I. The process that this committee has followed in the past on supplementary (C)s is that the minister does not appear, and I believe that in the case of national revenue, the minister does not appear on main estimates either.

Again, I'm not looking to support your motion. If you want to make it into another issue beyond your motion on political charities, that's up to you.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

I've been a member of the committee since 2009. I'm just pointing that out.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Gerald Keddy, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS]

Through you, Mr. Chairman—

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Yes, but you can't say “through you” and then address the member directly.

Are there any further comments?

Mr. Rankin.

[Murray Rankin, NDP, Victoria, BC]

In response, I think you did say that the motion was in order. Under the Standing Orders of the House of Commons, this committee does have jurisdiction over both the Minister of Finance and the Minister of National Revenue. That's clear in the standing orders.

As I said, if there are concerns about the specificity of the motion, I'm more than happy, of course, to expand it to simply ask the minister to appear and explain these issues of public concern. Canadians have an interest in the accountability of the minister for the actions of the agency.

I'm particularly concerned, as I said in the motion, about the expenditure of money to go after these charities. There are so many other topics I would like to invite the minister to come to talk about, such as tax havens and corruption in the Montreal CRA office. I'm happy to broaden the motion, but it occurred to me that because there is a specific item in the estimates, the appropriation of this money, this $6.3 million for this very purpose, I thought it would be more helpful to be specific than to be general.

Under Standing Order 108(2) this standing committee can request a report on any matter, and I would request that the minister assist us on that study. I'd like to study this issue in detail. If it's not technically appropriate for reasons of precedent to do this as a matter of the supplementary estimates (C), it is still appropriate for us to do it. This is the committee where the minister is to be held to account for actions and expenditures within that agency, so it seemed to me this was the appropriate place to bring forward those concerns.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Okay, I appreciate that.

Your motion is in order, Mr. Rankin, and your motion does deal with inviting the Minister of National Revenue for the supplementary estimates.

[Murray Rankin, NDP, Victoria, BC]

I was just reacting to Mr. Keddy's comment which seemed to suggest it was not in order.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

In fairness, I don't think Mr. Keddy made that argument.

[Murray Rankin, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Okay, I apologize. I didn't understand then.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Mr. Bélanger,

you have the floor.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I want to reinforce that if the motion is in order, it is up to the committee to decide whether or not it wishes to invite the minister to appear. Depending on the outcome, Mr. Rankin may want to take other steps.

Mr. Chairman, I ask for a recorded vote.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

It will be a recorded vote.

Is there further comment?

Mr. Keddy.

[Gerald Keddy, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS]

Hopefully, Mr. Chairman, these will be the last comments on this.

Again, I was not suggesting for a moment that the motion was not in order. Quite frankly, a plethora of questions come out of Mr. Rankin's motion, and I'm surprised that if he's concerned about those issues, he hasn't asked those questions in the House of Commons during question period. But I think we need to deal with the motion in front of us, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, Mr. Keddy.

[Glenn Thibeault, NDP, Sudbury, ON]

If you want to open it up one more time, I'm more than happy to start.