Evidence of meeting #25 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was students.
A recording is available from Parliament.
NDP
Andrew Cash NDP Davenport, ON
Do you think Canadians would be surprised to hear that in many different ways students do not have workers' rights when they are actually working?
President Elect, University of Toronto Students' Union
I would hope so. I think that if people are performing employment that is typically paid, then they should be paid for it, and also they should be covered under workers' rights legislation. And so I'd hope that Canadians would be supportive. I think that they would.
NDP
Andrew Cash NDP Davenport, ON
Thank you. I'd just like to throw the rest of my time over to my colleague, Mr. Dubé.
NDP
Matthew Dubé NDP Chambly—Borduas, QC
All right. In that minute I just want to quickly get maybe a comment from our friend at CASA, because at the last meeting we heard from one of our colleagues on the other side that according to Stats Canada student loans are dropping. The reality is that they're up 44.1% since 1999 so that's pretty significant.
What is that doing to folks? We heard a couple of weeks ago about the anxiety. It's also up 24.4%, in case the government is wondering, since 2005. What's that doing for young people in the workplace?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
All questions and comments and answers go through the chair, please. Thank you.
Mr. Champagne, please respond.
National Director, Canadian Alliance of Student Associations
Student loans are a big barrier for students when they do graduate. Perhaps the prevalence of student loans might not be as problematic if students were graduating into good well-paying jobs after. They would be able to manage that, but because of the prevalence of PINEs and the struggles they have to integrate into employment, student loans are further burdening them with regard to paying them back, and in terms of being able to make life decisions such as buying a house, whatever it is they choose to do.
So that is now lasting longer as they progress through their lives, the impact those debts are having.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
Thank you.
I'm going to take the next round.
I want to start with you, Ms. Robinson. I very much agreed with much of your presentation. As you know, we have a very fine institution in Edmonton, NAIT, which trains more apprentices than any other in Canada I think. So it's one of the strongest national institutions.
In your presentation, you said that you saw a strong trend of students enrolling in your institutions who had already completed a university bachelor's degree and who sought targeted skills that would give them a competitive advantage in the marketplace. President Feltham has made the same point to me as well.
So why is that? Why do they do the university degree first and then come to your institutions later?
Chief Executive Officer, Polytechnics Canada
There are at least two quick answers I will give you. One is because we don't have enough data on the different kinds of occupations and professions and the earning power of each profession, we are generally driving our high school graduates into university. Every parent in Canada will say, I want my kid to go to university. I need more parents to say, I want my kid to go to a polytechnic.
So there is that. Then, universities have no incentive to turn students away when other pressures on their funding mean that it's per bum in seat that they're getting the funding. But there are a number of students who are not suited to sitting in large classes, especially in the general arts and sciences. So one of the kinds of graduate certificate responses has been to the general arts graduate. I have a B.A. in sociology but now I need to be productive and I need to learn some technical skills and some soft skills. Colleges and polytechnics have the flexibility to respond, design programs that are quality assured by each province, with nine months to delivery to the workforce.
So I think there are two things and that's why I would bring it right back to the data. We need to know about youth pathways.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
I would say on the first point you made, though, in terms of the data, it would even be expanded in the sense of.... At least when I was in high school, the option of going to a polytechnic was not even presented. In our last panel on Tuesday, that's what a lot of the people were saying, not to tell someone in high school where they should go, but actually make them aware of all of the options that are available.
You may start off, as my uncle did, as an X-ray technician because he got an AIT degree, but he ended up getting his doctorate and becoming a diabetes researcher. You just never know where your paths lead. You might as well be aware of all the options that are available. I think that's a problem as well.
Is that better, though, now in junior highs and high schools than it was?
Chief Executive Officer, Polytechnics Canada
A little bit, but let's remember the bias. The high school guidance counsellor actually is a teacher. You can only be a teacher if you've gone to university. Why would you want to promote something that you didn't do? That's one point.
The other thing where things get better is exactly in Alberta. NAIT and SAIT are able to say, we produced this many students, their first six months they were earning this, median earnings are this. We don't have to invent that data. That is why I think, bringing it back to the federal role...to challenge every public post-secondary institution to make its outcomes data known and available.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
I want to raise a second problem with you, and it may be more particular to my own province. But if you look at a company like Ledcor—one of their executives is on the board of NAIT in terms of working with the institution—they say there are certain programs in NAIT in which 100% of those graduates are taken up immediately by companies. In fact, the companies would take up 50% more graduates if they could. So you go back to NAIT and say, what is the issue here?
In terms of demand, you have a higher demand than you have supply. What's the issue? They will typically point to an issue of ongoing annual funding which is obviously mostly provincial. Is that the issue, or is there another?
Chief Executive Officer, Polytechnics Canada
That's what I'm getting to with my second recommendation. We don't have adequate data. When the federal government transfers funding to the provinces to deliver those kinds of training programs, it's inside this glob of money called the Canada social transfer. How much is really going to post-secondary, and within that, how much is going to university versus a polytechnic, versus a community college, and how much is going to the high-demand programs?
Some of the programs we're talking about, sir, are high-tech, so it's the investment in technology. You're not going to be able to produce 60 power engineers because the technology is so expensive and dangerous. So NAIT's problem has been that it doesn't have the capacity to train even when industry is demanding more.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
Now, in terms of the second one, then, you would have actually directed funds, but you would also ask for, I guess, better feedback and information back from the provinces to the federal government in terms of where the funds are currently being allocated.
Chief Executive Officer, Polytechnics Canada
Absolutely. This is the accountability for the post-secondary spend.
Conservative
Liberal
Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS
Thank you, Chair.
Mr. Van Kesteren was asking about better data around issues, or details around unpaid interns and the potential gender bias around unpaid internships. Would you agree that if Stats Canada were to track unpaid internships, the gender question could be addressed as part of that research?
President, Canadian Intern Association
Absolutely. I think Statistics Canada should be tracking whether the internship is paid or unpaid; what industry it's in; obviously, the gender of the intern; and also whether a job was offered at the end of the internship.
Liberal
Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS
That would help answer Mr. Van Kesteren's question.
I'm just trying to help.
On the question of labour market research, Ms. Robinson, we understand and the students understand the importance of what labour market trends are, and what they're likely to be, recognizing there are always changes. Is that the kind of work that more resources and a deeper mandate for Stats Canada may be able to address?
Chief Executive Officer, Polytechnics Canada
Yes, indeed. I think I presented to the committee in the fall there are these two specific surveys.