Finance Committee on March 27th, 2014

[Nobina Robinson]

I fully agree, and I can tell you trades training.... We always think it's about metal bashing, and we always think about these old dirty jobs. But the technology is changing rapidly in many of these professions. So, the larger schools—in my membership, NAIT/SAIT in Alberta—are innovating in trades training such that in Calgary, you can actually do your course work on your smartphone while then going out to your work location.

There are all kinds of innovation I could enumerate for you. The concept of block release is really an old concept, and it was designed at a time when there were employers willing to take them on. For whatever economic shift that has gone on, the block release is a bit of problem now.

I'd say that with Minister Kenney's trip to Germany and the U.K., one of the things you can see there in the German model of apprenticeship is it's extremely integrated into the studying. It's not that you would go away for 10 weeks and get your training. It's part of your work week. It's part of your study week.

There are many different things. There are specific.... The larger community colleges, not just my members, are able to innovate within all of this, and if you wish I can outline those—

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Just now you've led me to another thing....

For example, and if you're knowledgeable, are the unions in Germany actually integrating very well so that they make sure that when the young people go into these programs....? Because that's what ends up.... Some of these young people do the first year or so, and then they can't get the job close to home so they drop out, and then they're underemployed. They're left in an underemployed situation, which is really too bad because they've paid a year or two of tuition.

Is that the model we're looking to go to? Is that what has made Germany successful?

[Nobina Robinson]

There are many reasons why Germany is successful, but one of the bigger models is their notion of their chambers of commerce, which involve unions, employers, post-secondary, and mandatory participation for all employers.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Okay.

[Nobina Robinson]

That's one very important feature.

The other thing is that all of the prosperous G-7 countries are facing this rural-urban divide. It's very difficult to get people to go back to their communities.

I think what we heard after the minister's trip—and we were very delighted to be part of that trip; my colleague, Ken Doyle, was invited to join the minister—is that there are common challenges that places like Germany and the U.K. have with us, particularly on how you get the workers back to where the work is when the training had happened in an urban location.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

You have one minute.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

I have a couple quick ones.

Monsieur Groulx, are you still receiving funding under the youth employment strategy piece?

[Sylvain Groulx]

Yes, for one program.

The Young Canada Works Program.

We do not receive funding for programs that provide jobs to young people once they have finished their studies. Community organizations can no longer receive funding for this because they can no longer be employers under the program.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you.

Claire, my last quick question is for you. I'd especially like to ask you about the OSHA regulation. I think it is Bill 146 in Ontario that was just tabled in December 2013.

Are you aware of any other provinces moving on protecting potential interns under OSHA guidelines in their provinces?

[Claire Seaborn]

It really differs province by province, but British Columbia has already taken more steps than Ontario has in terms of protecting interns and students under their workplace, health, and safety. But no, I haven't seen anything similar to OSHA in any other province, and in that respect, Ontario is a leader.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thanks very much.

Now Mr. Cullen, please.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for being here today.

This is interesting just in terms of this growth, particularly in the unpaid internships.

Ms. Robinson, we're recognizing there's a difference between an integrated internship program that helps a young person get the training that moves them into a position, and Mr. Annan, in companies that feel an ethical or moral obligation—I'm not sure what obligation—towards paying interns.

What is our measurement of internships? Who measures internships in Canada, particularly unpaid internships?

[Claire Seaborn]

Nobody.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Nobody? The federal government doesn't?

[Claire Seaborn]

No.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Individual provincial governments don't?

As they say, if you don't measure, you can't manage.

Is there a general agreement across our panel today that the leadership required to actually understand what's happening in the internship field would be an important one to cutting out abuse, certainly, of any employers that are using internships inappropriately? Would anyone disagree with that statement and put it in the negative?

Okay, there is agreement from the panel on this.

I want to talk about that potential for exploitation. So, we don't know how many unpaid internships are out there. We have, in some provinces, laws that would protect those unpaid interns from unreasonable work conditions, and a lack of health and safety benefits. But, the application of what few laws exist on the books is also somewhat scattered.

Can anyone comment on how we got to this situation? Why is it? Is it a supply and demand question, where young people are coming out of school so hungry for a job—or not a job, an internship, anything—that they're willing to put themselves in sometimes, as we call it, precarious work.

Mrs. Bollo-Kamara, could you comment on this?

[Yolen Bollo-Kamara]

I think it's as you mentioned. Students are going into more and more debt, and just the way the economy is, it seems as though for many of the jobs you need to take on an unpaid internship in order to gain any sort of footing.

At U of T we have some good examples of paid internship opportunities. For example, our engineering and computer science students tend to go into what's called PEY, a professional employment year. They're able to gain paid employment—it's an internship, but it's paid—and afterwards, they tend to find jobs in those fields. But in a number of other fields that are typically female-dominated, as Claire mentioned, such as journalism and the fashion industry, there aren't the same opportunities.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

To be clear on that last point, applying a gender lens to this question that we're facing, is it your suggestion that there is a potential further bias against young women graduates coming into the workplace within the fields they may be pursuing?

[Yolen Bollo-Kamara]

Yes, young women, but I think the issue of unpaid internships tends.... I think it further marginalizes anyone who is of a lower income, because, as was mentioned, if you can't afford to take on unpaid employment, than you don't have the same opportunities to network.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Right. I want to pick up on this point with Mr. Champagne.

I'm not sure how you phrased it exactly, but you mentioned that there is the potential, and it may even be a reality right now, that between “those who have”, leaving school with no debt because either they or their parents are of means...that there could be an exacerbation between the haves and have-nots of young Canadians coming out of school.

Am I summarizing some of what you had to say correctly? I don't want to get it wrong.

[Jonathan Champagne]

Some of that is the case, yes.

There are other reasons explaining why students may have graduated with no debt; they were able, for example, to get work opportunities or co-op opportunities as well.

But the impact and burden that debt has on graduates will help determine or impact their choice in employment after they graduate.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Does this not further exacerbate the waste of talent, particularly of middle-income or lower-income Canadians; that not only are they leaving school with higher debt rates than those from a higher class of income—

[Jonathan Champagne]

Yes, I would—