Finance Committee on Nov. 6th, 2013

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

You have to have a tuition fee for the school that's built on reserve.

[Chief Morley Googoo]

Right.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

You have to have a tuition fee for the school that you didn't build.

[Chief Morley Googoo]

Right. Because we're under a federal government funding agreement for the schools that are on reserve, the federal government funds less than they would fund a provincial school—

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

But we've built the school—

[Chief Morley Googoo]

If a child went to a provincial school, the federal government would send a higher tuition for that student than if the school were on reserve.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Again, we've built the school on reserve, but we haven't built the school off reserve.

[Chief Morley Googoo]

The schools that are built are probably outdated and won't pass any inspection. Most of them are trailers in very poor condition.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Well, that's another factor we can talk about, too.

I want to go to the Canadian Medical Association.

You talked about pan-Canadian health care and seniors care. To me it strikes a chord. My dad had a stroke this summer and went through the system. I must say that the care he received in Red Deer was phenomenal. On the cost, however, as you were saying, when we look at the number of days he spent in hospital and then recovery treatment by the team who worked with him, I wondered whether that really needed to be provided at the hospital or whether it could have been provided somewhere else.

You talked about savings. Is that one of the things you were talking about, identifying that by putting a person in a different location we can see results as well as cost savings?

[Owen Adams]

Absolutely.

I mean, there are different kinds of rehabilitative facilities. In fact, I think the University Health Network in Toronto bought one. There are all kinds of things that we could be doing. We need to provide cost-effective care in the home, supportive housing. There are lots of opportunities.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

When you see opportunities like that—again, health-care providers recognize them every day—how do you present those suggestions to the province? How do you expect the federal government to go to the province to say that they should do this or do that?

How would you advise us on that?

[Rachel Bard]

If I could add to that, part of our proposal is to invest in an innovation fund. There are good things happening, but we need to be able to scale it up, put it across, and build on some of those successes.

I think by creating some incentive and really building...because there is good comprehensive community-based home care reaching the elderly and supporting the families who are looking after them.

There are many opportunities, but we have to invest a bit to really see some savings in the long term.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

You've identified different savings. I guess my question is, when you identify a savings, how do you get that up to the province? How do you expect the federal government to drive it through to the province?

A lot of times those management decisions are made at the provincial level and not the federal level.

[Owen Adams]

Again, I think a lot of it comes down to information. For example, for 10 years we've been running a wait list management conference. It's sharing and getting a community practice going.

The provinces are now discovering that a small proportion of the population use a lot of health care. In Ontario it's the top 1% who use 34%. All the provinces are discovering that. Surely, there has to be a way of sharing some of the strategies for mitigating that.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

I'm running out of time. I wish we could talk longer on this because it's very fascinating.

I think there are lots of ideas here for saving a lot of money and providing better care. It's a case of identifying them and putting them into place.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, Mr. Hoback.

Mr. Côté, go ahead.

[Raymond Côté, NDP, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to use this opportunity to criticize the government's total lack of respect toward the witnesses and all Canadians when it comes to the allocation of time. We will still move past this, but I am sorry for you.

I will begin with Ms. Bard.

I really liked your brief. I will focus on the third recommendation, which concerns the renewal of funding for affordable housing. I must begin by saying that you are living dangerously. The measures you are proposing for doing away with tax cuts for companies might result in an avalanche of compliments from my Conservative colleagues.

That being said, I am somewhat surprised—but I do think that you wanted to remain realistic—by the fact that you proposed only a renewal, rather than an increase, of that envelope.

[Rachel Bard]

Of course, increasing that envelope would be ideal, but we would at least like to keep what we have. This program has really generated added value and targeted needs related to health determinants. We know that it has been effective. The economic benefits have been very substantial.

[Raymond Côté, NDP, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

This is something I saw during a summit organized by the Société d'habitation du Québec—the Quebec housing corporation. They talked about a worrisome situation. In Montreal—especially in some disadvantaged areas—15% to 20% of housing is downright substandard. That dire situation negatively affects the future of many children. I am sure that the situation is very similar in the Beauport—Limoilou riding.

Thank you very much for your answer.

Mr. Bouchard, you have some very interesting recommendations. I will talk about another issue with you. I am sorry, but once again, in situations involving tax cuts or non-refundable tax credits, we are pretty much talking about out-of-pocket costs and wasted money. I would like to question you somewhat boldly about the tax credit for public transit. I would like to know how little your members benefit from that tax credit, given their very low income.

[Jonathan Bouchard]

I couldn't talk to you specifically about the tax credit for public transit. However, regarding all tax measures—especially those for students, but also for higher education stakeholders—we have noted the following in our study. Students with an income or students who get in debt year after year to go to school could very rarely use that tax credit. You are talking about public transit, but those measures in no way help increase accessibility to services—whatever those services may be—when students cannot benefit from them or see their concrete effects over the course of the same year.

[Raymond Côté, NDP, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Okay.

Ms. Nielsen, did you want to add anything about the tax credit for public transit?

[Amanda Nielsen]

Our members don't have a policy on this, but in general, we think that both tax credits and upfront grants are really important for students.

[Raymond Côté, NDP, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Very well.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Mr. Côté, you have one and a half minute left.

[Raymond Côté, NDP, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Excellent. I really have plenty of time.

I will come back to you, Ms. Bard. Mr. Adams could perhaps also comment.

I admit that, with regards to health care determinants, I have a summary from the Direction régionale de la santé publique de la Capitale-Nationale. The document talks about the difference in life expectancy between Limoilou and Sainte-Foy. In my riding, the life expectancy is seven years shorter than that in upper town.

Would you like to comment on that reality and on poverty issues related to housing? Perhaps you would like to go further on that topic.

Mr. Adams, did you want to say something?