Evidence of meeting #56 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site.) The winning word was measure.
A video is available from Parliament.
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS
If they exceeded the $15,000, would they lose that whole amount?
4:55 p.m.
Chief, Labour, Market Employment Learning, Department of Finance
They would, indeed, yes.
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS
You understand, then, why an economist like Jack Mintz refers to that as a potential disincentive.
4:55 p.m.
Chief, Labour, Market Employment Learning, Department of Finance
Absolutely. I think the key difference there in the remarks I've flagged before is that.... We're not commenting on the specific cases of one business that may be facing a very particular situation. On average, across the economy, throughout the entire impact of the measure, we're not expecting this measure to create a disincentive for growing a business.
4:55 p.m.
NDP
Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I will ask two questions.
I would first like to go back to the fact that the department did not prepare an analysis regarding the jobs created by this measure. I can understand that, as an official, you do not need to answer political questions. However, as an individual, can you understand why we are reluctant and why we are asking questions about this? You appear before this committee and, when we ask you how many jobs have been created, you say that the study of the Canadian Federation of Independent Businesses indicated 25,000 jobs, without also mentioning the study of the Parliamentary Budget Officer.
Why did you mention the study of the Canadian Federation of Independent Businesses, but not the study of the Parliamentary Budget Officer?
4:55 p.m.
Chief, Labour, Market Employment Learning, Department of Finance
I could have mentioned both studies.
4:55 p.m.
NDP
Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Okay.
Also, you mentioned the internal analysis by the Department of Finance that does not deal with the number of jobs created. I am really curious to see it, but unless we submit an access to information request, we will not be able to obtain that document.
Without disclosing the recommendations made in the document, can you tell us what issues were addressed in the advice provided to the minister?
I don't really want to know the details, but I would at least like to know what issues were forwarded to the minister with this analysis.
5 p.m.
Chief, Labour, Market Employment Learning, Department of Finance
I don't want to go there. As you know, I am not in a position to speculate or comment on this matter. It is therefore very difficult for me to tell you about the issues addressed in the document.
However, I can confirm that, as for all other measures, we have offered briefings to the minister. We have provided him with information on the measure, scenarios and economic overview. As I mentioned, there is great interest in the number of potential jobs. At the Department of Finance, the number of jobs associated with a specific measure is quite often not calculated. I have in fact identified the complexities and the major risk factor that might come with estimates like that.
5 p.m.
NDP
Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
I can understand that. That is why I did not delve into that aspect.
You have assessed the tax-related costs of the measure. You have probably also assessed the number and the type of businesses that could benefit from it, the sectors that would have something to gain or lose from it. I suspect that you have also calculated the negative effects of the measure.
Basically, what has been studied? I don't really want to know what recommendations and advice were submitted to the minister, but I do want to know what issues were addressed in the analysis.
5 p.m.
Chief, Labour, Market Employment Learning, Department of Finance
Your comments are interesting. I can give you clear answers to a lot of your questions.
Earlier, I talked about the number of businesses that would be affected. We are talking about 780,000 businesses across the country, which is 90% of the businesses that pay EI premiums.
5 p.m.
NDP
Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Yes, but I did not necessarily want the numbers. What items were in the analysis, apart from those that I just mentioned?
I don't really want to know the outcome of the analysis. I want to know what topics were included in the analysis and subsequently submitted to the minister. I don't need to know what the advice and the outcome were. There is a difference between knowing what issues were addressed and what your response was.
Do you understand what I mean?
5 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
I think we're getting into areas of the minister making a political decision in terms of what policy the minister chooses. If a member wants to know every single piece of advice that's ever given to the minister, and the minister making the decision, this may be a better question for the minister when the minister appears before committee. That's my advice as the chair. I'm not sure the member's going to get any more information on this line of questioning.
5 p.m.
NDP
Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
If I may, I was trying to be careful and not ask for the advice itself, but just the broad topics that were addressed in the advice. I've been careful, or tried to be.
5 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
You want everything except the one line which says “with the advice”. I think the official has provided all the information the official can provide, so at this point we're sawing sawdust.
It is a valid question for the minister. I would encourage the member to ask it.
5 p.m.
NDP
Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
I am going to share the rest of my time with Mr. Cullen.
5 p.m.
Some hon. members
Oh, oh!
5 p.m.
NDP
5 p.m.
Some hon. members
Oh, oh!
5 p.m.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
I would have hoped that would have come out of Alberta, but that's okay.
I have a question around this seven-year levelling factor, around the employment insurance program. When was that brought in?
5 p.m.
Chief, Labour, Market Employment Learning, Department of Finance
That was brought in last year.
5 p.m.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Last year, and the clock starts on that in two years' time from now?
5 p.m.
Chief, Labour, Market Employment Learning, Department of Finance
To be very exact, they're going to use this mechanism to compute the EI premium rate for 2017. Now, I just want to be very clear that when you're talking about the clock starting to count, the amount that will have to be brought back to balance does include whatever surplus may be gathered between 2009 and 2017.