Evidence of meeting #60 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was officer.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Steven Hoffman  Assistant Professor, Faculty of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Ian Culbert  Excutive Director, Canadian Public Health Association
Véronique Lalande  Spokesperson, Initiative de vigilance du Port de Québec
Daniel Therrien  Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Elizabeth Kingston  General Manager, Nunavut, North West Territories and Nunavut Chamber of Mines
Stephen Mooney  Director, Cold Climate Innovation Centre, Yukon College, Yukon Research Centre
Joel Kettner  Assistant Professor, College of Medicine, Faculty of Health Sciences, University of Manitoba, As an Individual

4:10 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Oh, that's not exactly the intention of my intervention.

4:10 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Gerald Keddy Conservative South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS

He'll send them with goodie bags.

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

No, no goodie bags; the Ethics Commissioner wouldn't like that.

On a much more serious note, thank you to all of you.

To Mr. Therrien, I'm trying to understand exactly your concerns about this sharing of information, particularly the cross-matching that goes on, as imagined under this omnibus bill.

First of all, describe these if you can. I need these in scenarios. It's hard for me to contemplate these in the abstract. Who is it we're talking about here? Whose information would be shared? Are these criminals? Are these people suspected of criminal activity here in Canada, or outside of Canada? Are these people who have not been charged with anything? Who are we talking about?

Then I'll ask you about what kind of information we're going to be sharing with other countries.

4:10 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Daniel Therrien

We're essentially talking about the DNA of missing persons, whether they be alive or dead. The proposal is to add a few indices to the existing DNA data bank, which currently relates to criminals, for the purpose of identifying human remains or locating missing persons.

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Why would we be concerned with this? This is something we as the opposition have called for, for many years, the DNA data bank for missing people. Why is this a privacy concern that you raise?

4:10 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Daniel Therrien

I support the idea of having a DNA data bank to locate missing persons or unidentified human remains. The concern is in the cross-matching of various indices, some of which are for the humanitarian purpose of finding missing persons, back to other indices that deal with criminality, such that the DNA of a missing person provided by, say, a relative to identify the person in question could be cross-matched to criminal indices and thereby lead to law enforcement actions.

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

You're supportive in broad terms of the DNA database for missing people. Your concern is that when DNA has been provided by a family member to the government, say, it is somehow then connected.... I'm sorry. I must have just missed the link here between that and the use of that DNA further to some other criminal activity. The person is missing.

4:10 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Daniel Therrien

The bank is constituted of several indices, some of which deal with either convicted offenders or DNA collected at crime scenes. Other indices would now deal with the DNA of missing persons or persons who may be dead. All of this is put into, globally, a DNA data bank. The government would be able to cross-match the DNA in question.

Maybe to be clearer, there's a provision in the bill, which is proposed new subsection 5.5(2), which would actually limit the matching of DNA information provided by a relative so that it could be used only for the purpose of identifying a missing person. The provision explicitly says that the DNA of the relative of the missing person cannot be matched against the crime scene index or the criminal offender index. In that way, the distinction between the humanitarian purpose and the law enforcement purpose is made clear in that provision with respect to the DNA of a relative of a missing person.

What I'm suggesting is that the rule should also apply to the DNA of the missing person himself or herself.

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Again, forgive me for not being remotely close to an expert in your field, but the concern is that the DNA collected for one purpose gets used for another purpose.

4:15 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Even if the purpose is to attempt to find a criminal who committed a crime, if some DNA was collected at a scene and it's cross-matched to DNA that was supplied by a relative, then it's an inappropriate use of what is private information.

4:15 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Daniel Therrien

That is my contention, yes.

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Do you come forward to this committee with a recommendation that would create that greater certainty, i.e., that information collected for one purpose cannot be used for another?

4:15 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Daniel Therrien

The simplest way to do this, I believe, would be to take that provision, proposed subsection 5.5(2), which applies to the DNA of the relative of a missing person, and apply the same rule to the DNA of the missing person himself or herself.

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Right. So if it's good enough for DNA that's been supplied by a relative, then the same protection—

4:15 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Daniel Therrien

Should apply to the missing person.

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

I see. Okay. So we'll look at a recommendation that....

What's challenging for us, just so our witnesses understand, is that the way the process has gone with this very large bill—it's 460 pages—we have begun already to submit amendments, and we're operating on a deadline that's already essentially passed. There may be a bit of a scramble to try to incorporate some of the challenges you've put forward.

The second question you have is with regard to the attempt to improve the temporary foreign worker program. You're concerned about the allowance of SINs being cast about. The government's trying to clean up a mess. There's been a problem with this program, as has been widely identified in terms of abuses.

Will any of the recommendations you're making to us today, in terms of amendments, weaken any attempt to make this badly misused program any better and more accountable to Canadians?

4:15 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Daniel Therrien

I do not believe so. I'm not suggesting, actually, any amendments to the bill itself here. What I'm signalling is that there's a lack of detail as to the use of the SIN beyond the employment program. I'm signalling that future rules to be enacted in regulations or procedures may speak to uses of the SIN beyond the employment program.

I think there should be proper consideration of privacy issues for these secondary uses, but I acknowledge that it is reasonable to use the SIN for employment purposes.

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Okay.

Thank you.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you, Mr. Cullen.

Mr. Saxton, seven minutes.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Andrew Saxton Conservative North Vancouver, BC

Thank you, Chair.

Thanks to our witnesses for being here today.

My first questions are for the Privacy Commissioner, Monsieur Therrien.

Could you explain how Employment and Skills Development Canada, ESDC, is working with your office to ensure that the temporary foreign worker program respects the privacy rights of these workers while in Canada?

November 24th, 2014 / 4:15 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Daniel Therrien

You probably are referring to the fact that ESDC approached my office in 2013 to discuss the privacy issues related to this program. We acknowledge that there have been consultations by ESDC. However, what we're signalling today is that the bill speaks to regulations that provide for the sharing of information with provinces, for instance. We believe there's also sharing of information between federal departments, for instance, with Citizenship and Immigration, of course, and with the Border Services Agency. We would like to see a multi-departmental privacy impact assessment, not only one conducted by ESDC for the purposes of its own programs.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Andrew Saxton Conservative North Vancouver, BC

Thank you.

Would you be able to explain some of the specific reforms our government is engaged in currently with the temporary foreign worker program to ensure that we always respect the privacy rights of workers?