Finance Committee on Nov. 24th, 2014

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

I'm assuming a privacy impact assessment would have been done on some of those other information-sharing agreements that we have across departments now. Is that not right?

[Daniel Therrien]

As I've said, what we've seen is information from ESDC based on information it has provided us. We know that there is sharing between federal departments, and we have not been provided with information as to all the uses for which that sharing goes on. That is what we would like to look at through interdepartmental privacy impact assessments.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, Mr. Allen.

Mr. Caron, you may go ahead.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Chair, is the committee amenable to my sharing my time with Mr. Côté?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Can Mr. Caron share his time with Mr. Côté? Mr. Côté will not be able to vote.

Okay, that is agreeable.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you very much.

I will start with you, Mr. Hoffman.

What do you make of Mr. Kettner's comment about the chief public health officer not being subordinate to the president? Do you agree with that statement?

[Steven Hoffman]

I disagree with Professor Kettner. I think it's very clear that, when you have a deputy minister who is the head of an agency, subject to the minister, that person is the one in charge. So if you have a chief public health officer who is then, of course, reporting to the deputy minister, the head of the agency of course, then he or she can't exercise the same level of independence. I think we're already seeing that change. We're seeing that the chief public health officer is already not able to make statements that he feels need to be made. We are already starting to see it, unfortunately.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you kindly.

Ms. Lalande, I think you may have been forgotten, so I am going to turn to you.

What you said about port authorities was very thought-provoking. You feel that port authorities, which are federally regulated, are not necessarily interested in dealing with local or community problems.

Whenever we ask questions about the nickel dust or other port authority related issues, the minister or parliamentary secretary always gives us this answer:

“It's an arm's-length organization.”

Since these organizations are quasi-independent of the government, the government cannot intervene in these matters. The government refuses to force port authorities like the Port de Québec to assume their responsibilities and comply with environmental legislation.

What would you like the federal government to do in situations like yours?

[Véronique Lalande]

We aren't the only ones in this situation. Many citizens across the country are in the same boat.

I will use an analogy. It is as though someone owned a building and, because they owned many buildings, decided for the sake of efficiency, to hand over the operation of that building to a management company, giving it full authority. If I, as a building tenant or neighbour, have a problem related to the building's occupancy, I have to be able to ask the owner to fix that problem. It's not acceptable for the owner to repeatedly tell me that, even though my concerns are legitimate, he has handed over all his authority to a management company. The owner is still responsible for the building's operation and property.

I believe that, as a citizen, I should be entitled to communicate my concerns directly to my government. I should not have to negotiate, for administrative reasons, with an administrative authority that always refuses to grant my access to information requests and to publicly disclose figures, an authority whose first mission is to develop the industry, not protect the public.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

I have one last question for you before I hand the floor over to Mr. Côté.

[Véronique Lalande]

Go ahead.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Division 16 of the bill seeks to give port authorities, such as the Port de Québec, the ability to acquire federal property including other ports.

You have examined that division. What do you make of it?

[Véronique Lalande]

What we want to make clear in our remarks today is that a piecemeal approach is still being used to manage the specific needs of certain ports and port authorities. I am here today as the voice of the people. They are calling for a full review of this approach.

Allowing ports to acquire property, for instance, in British Columbia, for the purposes of a project and to manage those activities does not, in and of itself, pose a threat. Where the problem arises, however, is in the delegation of many such minor powers, which, when taken together, create an entity that falls outside the usual legislative scope. And that is what eventually gives rise to problems.

I will tie it back to the situation we are facing with the Port de Québec. The government is saying that ports need to be able to acquire property, but they can lease that property afterwards for the use that best suits their interests. If they become the owner, they can sublease the property. In our case, the property belongs to the federal government, but the industry is also conducting operations there.

The transportation industry is under federal jurisdiction. So even if the port authority acquires a property that is no longer federal, it could always hide and lease it to a company. That's what happened in our case. A company with no connection to the marine industry was cleaning up sites. With the help of our public health officials, we had to be extremely vocal to bring that to light.

But even then, will it happen? I do not know. But if the past is any indication, the government should be very cautious in its budget decision-making before giving port authorities greater powers without knowing exactly how those powers will be used.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Mr. Côté, the floor is yours. You have a minute and a half.

[Raymond Côté, NDP, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

A minute and a half; that's great.

I want to thank all the committee members for having me.

Ms. Lalande, thank you for setting aside a whole day and travelling from Quebec City to join us in Ottawa. I won't hide the fact that I will probably try to use other opportunities to ask you questions.

I would like to begin by telling the committee about the huge amount of work you and your spouse, Louis Duchesne, have done. The constituents of Beauport-Limoilou owe you a debt of gratitude.

You talked about the Conservatives' piecemeal approach. I should point out that you have been working on this for two years. We have been in touch over the last two years regarding this file.

What would you say about the government's overly fragmented approach?

[Véronique Lalande]

We think that this piecemeal approach prevents us from having a comprehensive view of the marine industry and port management. That's what causes problems. Ports compete with one another, and there is no integrated vision of the port industry.

For example, it is impossible to use port authorities' powers to bring closer to urban centres port activities that are more appropriate to the proximity of densely populated areas and move those activities to ports further away from urban areas. A piecemeal approach makes it impossible to do that, since each administration becomes a business that wants to achieve maximum productivity.

There is another significant issue that should be pointed out. Harbour authority boards are mainly composed of users' representatives—companies that do business in the harbour—and one representative for each level of government.

I want to remind you that, according to their statutes, harbour authorities' mission is to ensure marine development, respect the three jurisdictions and take into account the community and the environment. So, why does no one on those boards represent these aspects?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Merci beaucoup.

We'll go next to Mr. Adler, for seven minutes, please.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

Thank you all for being here this afternoon and for your input into the BIA 2.

I want to come to you shortly, Ms. Lalande.

First, Mr. Mooney, you indicated earlier that Canada needs a presence in the north. Could you quickly elaborate on that for me?

[Stephen Mooney]

I think internationally...I've travelled to Scandinavia and I've seen research facilities over there and one thing that other circumpolar countries are doing is making a presence in the northern part of their countries. This CHARS facility will be a world-class facility that will bring Canada onto the map for international research, helping northerners in the north for the north.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Thank you.

What role will the private sector play in all of this?

[Stephen Mooney]

I think the private sector is going to become involved on the economic development side. I'm an applied researcher. I work with industries to help get their products through to commercialization, and CHARS will be able to play a role in testing products in the north. I think a lot of communities across the north are going to benefit from this.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Lalande, welcome. I want to ask you a couple of questions. I'm just curious: what is your ultimate goal? What do you hope to achieve ultimately?

[Véronique Lalande]

Ultimately, I would like the members of the committee to realize.... Maybe this is not the time, but I think you have very few occasions on which to hear from real citizens who come to speak just for themselves and just to bring you a concern that maybe authorities or professors don't have. It's that it's not time to give small powers one at a time to port authorities, but it's really time to look at the port activities as a whole and then to act and to restrain the powers you are giving to

independent federal agencies.

who use them as well as they can, but whose goal is to maintain profits and not to protect people, which is your role.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Are you here speaking as an individual or as part of...?