Evidence of meeting #73 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fintrac.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Rob Stewart  Assistant Deputy Minister, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Gérald Cossette  Director, Financial Transactions and Reports Analysis Centre of Canada
Luc Beaudry  Manager, Terrorist Financing Intelligence Group, Financial Transactions and Reports Analysis Centre of Canada
Josée Nadeau  Senior Chief, Financial Crimes – International, Department of Finance

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

I call this meeting to order.

This is meeting 73 of the Standing Committee on Finance. As per our orders of the day, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), this is the start of our study on terrorist financing in Canada and abroad.

I want to welcome the four officials who are with us today from the Department of Finance and from the Financial Transactions and Reports Analysis Centre of Canada, or FINTRAC.

First of all, from the Department of Finance we have Assistant Deputy Minister Rob Stewart—welcome back—and the senior chief of financial crimes, international.

That is Ms. Josée Nadeau; welcome.

From FINTRAC we have the director.

That is Mr. Gérald Cossette; welcome to the committee.

We also have the manager of the terrorist financing intelligence group.

This is Mr. Luc Beaudry, whom I also welcome to the committee.

I understand that you each have a presentation.

We will begin with Mr. Stewart, please.

8:45 a.m.

Rob Stewart Assistant Deputy Minister, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, chairman and committee members, for the opportunity to appear before this committee at its inaugural meeting to study terrorist financing.

My intention today is to give you an overview of Canada's efforts to combat terrorist financing. These efforts fall within a wider framework known as the anti-money laundering and anti-terrorist financing regime, which I will refer to as the “regime.“

I will provide you with an overview of the current threats Canada faces from terrorist financing and how this affects Canada's safety and security as well as its economy. I will next provide a summary of how Canada is engaging internationally in the fight against the financing of terrorism. Finally, drawing on the recent report from the financial action task force on the financing of the terrorist organization the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant, or ISIL, I will outline what the international community currently understands about the financing of this organization and what we are still seeking to learn.

After Mr. Cossette and I have finished our opening remarks, we would be pleased to answer any questions you may have.

With respect to the domestic AML and ATF—anti-money laundering and anti-terrorist financing—regime, I would like to provide an overview. It is a comprehensive, horizontal initiative led by the Department of Finance that comprises 11 federal departments and agencies. The goal is to detect, deter, and facilitate the investigation and prosecuting of money laundering and terrorist financing offences, which contributes to the overall objective of protecting the integrity of Canada's financial system and the security of Canadians.

Of the 11 partners, seven receive incremental funding totalling roughly $70 million annually to support their activities. These partners are the Department of Finance, FINTRAC, the Department of Justice, the Public Prosecution Service of Canada, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, the Canada Border Services Agency, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, and the Canada Revenue Agency. The remaining partners contribute to the regime but do not receive dedicated funding. They include the Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions, Public Safety Canada, and Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development Canada.

In addition to combatting money laundering and terrorist financing, the regime complements the work of law enforcement and intelligence agencies related to serious and organized crime and national security threats. It is a key component of Canada's broad counterterrorism strategy.

The regime operates on the basis of three interdependent pillars: policy coordination, prevention, and disruption. Each regime partner plays an important role.

The first pillar is the regime's framework and coordination led by the department. The Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering) and Terrorist Financing Act, or PCMLTFA, is the primary piece of legislation that establishes this framework. The act requires financial institutions and intermediaries to identify their clients, keep records, and have an internal compliance program in place. The act also creates a mandatory reporting system for suspicious financial transactions, large cross-border currency transfers, and certain proscribed transactions. The legislation also established FINTRAC, and authorizes it to collect and analyze financial transaction reports and to disclose pertinent information to law enforcement and intelligence agencies.

The second pillar is the prevention of terrorist-linked funds or the proceeds of crime from entering the financial system. The onus for this deterrent approach falls to the financial institutions and intermediaries who are the gatekeepers to the financial system, and to the regulators, FINTRAC and the Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions, or OSFI, who ensure the compliance of these regulated businesses.

The detection and disruption of money laundering and terrorist financing represents the final pillar. In this pillar, regime partners such as CSIS, CBSA, and the RCMP, supported by FINTRAC intelligence, undertake investigations that follow the money in cases of money laundering, terrorist financing, and other financial crimes. The Canada Revenue Agency plays an important role in detecting charities that are at risk and ensuring that they are not being abused to finance terrorism.

The regime also has a robust terrorist listing process to freeze terrorist assets, pursuant to the Criminal Code and UN regulations, which is led by Public Safety Canada and Foreign Affairs respectively. In total, Canada has listed 90 terrorist entities under these two listing regimes.

Finally, the Public Prosecution Service of Canada ensures that crimes that threaten national or international security, including terrorist financing, are prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

The regime is a made-in-Canada approach to dealing with the threats of money laundering and terrorist financing, which respects the constitutional division of powers, the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and the privacy rights of Canadians. The regime is also consistent with international standards that are developed by the Financial Action Task Force, the international anti-money laundering and counter-terrorist financing standards-setting body.

Canada's regime is regularly reviewed and enhanced to address emerging risks. The Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering) and Terrorist Financing Act is reviewed by Parliament every five years. The regime is also subject to a number of formal reviews and audits, including a five-year performance evaluation and a biennial privacy audit of FINTRAC from the Office of the Privacy Commissioner.

Most recently the Standing Senate Committee on Banking, Trade and Commerce issued a report of its five-year review in March 2013. The department supports the committee's goal of improving the effectiveness of the regime and many of its key recommendations, which can be broadly categorized in three themes—implementing the regime structure to increase performance, enhanced information sharing, and ensuring an appropriate scope for the regime. The government has moved forward to implement many of the recommendations.

The government announced in economic action plan 2014 that it will introduce amendments to strengthen the regime, and these amendments were introduced in budget bill C-31, which received royal assent in June 2014.

These legislative and regulatory changes will strengthen customer due diligence standards; close regime gaps; improve compliance, monitoring, and enforcement; strengthen information sharing; and give the Minister of Finance the power to issue countermeasures against jurisdictions and foreign entities that lack sufficient or have ineffective money laundering and terrorist financing controls.

The amendments also enhance the ability of FINTRAC to disclose intelligence to federal partners on threats to the security of Canada. The department is currently developing a regulatory package to support these changes.

Administratively, the regime is revisiting its performance measurement strategy, and FINTRAC has increased its feedback to reporting entities through publishing its policy interpretations online.

Also, as announced in economic action plan 2014, the government, led by Foreign Affairs, will make changes to improve the effectiveness of Canada's targeted financial sanctions regime. These changes aim to streamline the ability of the private sector to implement financial sanctions, thereby increasing their effectiveness and reducing the burden on the private sector.

I would now like to turn to assessing terrorist financing threats. To make the most effective use of resources available, Canada, like many other countries, utilizes a risk-based approach to assessing and combatting terrorist financing threats. By adopting a risk-based approach, law enforcement, intelligence agencies, and financial institutions ensure that measures to prevent or mitigate money laundering and terrorist financing are commensurate to the risks identified.

Building on existing assessment practices, the regime is in the process of completing a comprehensive whole-of-government identification and assessment of the threats and Canada's vulnerability to money laundering and terrorist financing risks. The results of this exercise, when complete, will also deliver on Canada's 2013 G-8 action plan commitment to conduct a risk assessment and align with FATF, Financial Action Task Force, recommendations.

Work done to date indicates the terrorist financing threat in Canada is not as pronounced as it is in other regions of the world, where weaker anti-terrorist financing regimes can be found and where terrorist groups have established a foothold, both in terms of operations and also in financing their activities. Although the terrorist threat to Canada posed by radicalized extremists supporting entities like ISIL is real, the terrorist financing threat appears to be lower.

Canada has taken actions against many of these identified terrorist groups through the terrorist listing process. That said, Canada is not immune to abuse by those seeking to support terrorist financing, and I expect that my colleagues from the Canada Revenue Agency, the RCMP, and CSIS will address that in their presentations to the committee.

Now, I'd like to turn to how Canada is engaging on this matter internationally. Terrorist financing is a threat that does not respect borders, and Canada's efforts to fight it are undertaken in conjunction with international partners. Canada's international counterterrorism financing initiatives are accomplished through the FATF, the G-7, the G-20, and most recently, the Counter-ISIL Finance Group.

Canada, led by the department, is a founding member of the FATF and an active participant. The FATF develops international anti–money laundering and counterterrorism financing standards, and monitors their effective implementation in the 36 members and the more than 180 countries of the global FATF network. The FATF leads international efforts related to policy development and risk analysis, and identifies and reports on emerging money laundering and terrorist financing trends and methods. This important work helps the international community stay ahead of criminals, including terrorists and their financiers, to ensure that countries have the appropriate tools in place to address them globally.

The FATF also undertakes comprehensive peer reviews that assess compliance and effectiveness of member countries' anti–money laundering and counterterrorism financing regimes against its 40 recommendations. These recommendations require all countries to have effective systems for preventing and addressing money laundering, terrorist financing, and the financing of proliferation of weapons of mass destruction.

The recommendations set out the measures that countries should have in place within their criminal justice and regulatory systems, the preventative measures to be taken by financial institutions, measures to ensure corporate transparency, the establishment of competent authorities with appropriate powers and mechanisms for cooperation, and the arrangements to cooperate with other countries.

I note that Canada will be subject to an FATF mutual evaluation that will begin this fall. This assessment will review the extent to which Canada has the laws, regulations, institutions, and powers and procedures in place, and how it effectively implements them to combat money laundering and the financing of terrorists.

Canada is also participating in international efforts to counter terrorist financing through global capacity building. Specifically, the counterterrorism capacity-building program, run out of Foreign Affairs, has undertaken several counterterrorism financing capacity-building projects in countries of strategic interest, in the Americas, the Middle East, and South Asia.

As a last element to my remarks, I'd like to speak to the ongoing effort to combat the financing of ISIL. In addition to the core business of the FATF, Canada is actively engaged in the new work of the FATF on counter-ISIL financing, which is being undertaken in response to a call made this February by G-20 finance ministers. Last month, the FATF published a report drafted by experts in a number of countries, including Canada, summarizing the most significant revenue sources of ISIL, and highlighting a number of new and existing measures to disrupt its financing.

Specifically, the paper finds that ISIL is able to to draw significant funds through its control of large swaths of territory in Iraq and Syria. Known ISIL activities include the direct sale or taxing of economic assets, such as cash, oil, agricultural goods, cultural property, and other natural resources and commodities, and the looting of banks within the territory that ISIL captures.

Other sources of funds from abroad include kidnapping for ransom, the sale of archeological goods, external private donors, including through the non-profit or charity sectors and foreign terrorist fighters.

This report also notes that the group's active presence on the Internet and social media has allowed it to generate and convert international support into tangible funds. The group is known to exploit new technologies and modern communication networks, including crowdfunding techniques, to solicit financial contributions.

As the FATF paper notes, the infrastructure and organizational needs at ISIL make ongoing funding a necessity. Coalition air strikes have been effective in limiting the ability of ISIL to efficiently exploit oil and gas resources within their spheres of control. To supplement these military activities, international efforts are currently under way to help prevent ISIL from using or benefiting from the financial and commercial sectors under its control.

However, there are still issues of ISIL funding that are not well understood. To address this knowledge gap, the FATF will continue its important work by convening counterterrorism financing experts this September to study emerging trends and methods related to terrorist financing.

The FATF will also immediately review all of its members, including Canada, on their ability to restrict terrorism-related financial flows in accordance with its 40 recommendations. The focus of this exercise will be on the proper criminalization of the terrorist financing offence and the freezing of terrorist assets, including measures required by the United Nations Security Council resolutions.

This is particularly important given that some countries have yet to adequately implement the FATF standards on terrorist financing, which creates vulnerabilities within the entire financial system. In the fight to counter terrorist financing, we are only as strong as our weakest link.

In addition to the work of the FATF, Canada is also actively engaged in the U.S.-led anti-ISIL coalition, and its recently established working group to counter ISIL financing, which held its inaugural meeting last week. This working group is currently developing an action plan to help coordinate coalition activities. Canada's participation in this counter-financing working group is part of overall government efforts to counter ISIL.

Allow me to briefly conclude. Canada is committed and very engaged, both domestically and internationally, in the fight against terrorist financing. The risk is present and evolving.

We have a strong regime and are in the process of strengthening it through new regulatory amendments. We will continue to take stock of the risks and react accordingly.

Thank you.

9 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you very much, Mr. Stewart.

Mr. Cossette now has the floor.

9 a.m.

Gérald Cossette Director, Financial Transactions and Reports Analysis Centre of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for inviting us to speak with you today regarding your broader study on terrorism financing.

I can assure you that we will be as forthcoming as we can with our answers today; however, I know you understand that we cannot provide classified information in this public venue. We're also limited by legislation in what we can say about the information FINTRAC holds.

I would like to take a few minutes this morning to describe FINTRAC's mandate and the role we play in helping to protect Canadians and the integrity of the Canadian financial system. I will focus in particular on the contribution FINTRAC makes, in close cooperation with our police and national security partners, to detecting and combatting terrorism financing.

FINTRAC was created in 2000 by the Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering) and Terrorist Financing Act to deter, prevent, and detect money laundering and terrorism financing. Under this legislation FINTRAC, police, intelligence and national security agencies, prosecutors, and approximately 31,000 businesses across the country all have a role to play in creating a hostile environment for those who seek to abuse our financial system or who would threaten the safety of Canadians.

The legislation establishes obligations for financial services entities, money services, businesses, casinos, and other businesses subject to the act to establish a compliance program, identify clients, monitor business relationships, keep certain records, and report specific types of financial transactions to FINTRAC, including suspicious transactions and international electronic funds transfers of $10,000 or more. FINTRAC also receives terrorist property reports that are sent to the RCMP and CSIS.

I would like to take a moment to acknowledge the response of Canadian businesses to our request for accelerated reporting of suspicious transactions immediately following the attacks in Ottawa and in Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu last October. Our goal was to provide whatever assistance we could within our mandate to our police and national security partners in preventing another attack in Canada or abroad. I am pleased to say that the reporting of suspicious transactions increased by 22% in October 2014, and the information we received from businesses across the country was useful to our intelligence efforts. Canada's anti-money laundering and anti-terrorism financing regime, with businesses leading the way, functioned well in the face of these attacks.

Mr. Chair, the terrorist threat is real. A number of individuals are now making their way through our criminal justice system for terrorist acts they were planning to commit here in Canada. I know members are aware of the ongoing case against two individuals who were allegedly plotting to explode pressure-cooker bombs outside the British Columbia Legislative Assembly.

As well, just a couple of weeks ago, the Canada Border Services Agency arrested an individual for allegedly planning to blow up the United States Consulate and other buildings in Toronto's financial district. And finally, last September, an Ottawa resident who had trained in Afghanistan entered a guilty plea to terrorism charges in an Ottawa court and received a 24-year sentence for his crimes.

Following the attacks in Canada last fall, the director of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, CSIS, confirmed that his organization had identified more than 130 Canadians who have gone abroad in support of extremist activities. We cannot lose sight of the fact that these very same individuals are being trained, equipped, further radicalized, and may return to Canada at any point in the future. In fact, CSIS has stated that at least 80 individuals have already done so.

The threat posed by foreign fighters and other violent extremists was profoundly felt earlier this year in France, where the terrorists who attacked the magazine Charlie Hebdo allegedly had deep ties to foreign terror groups.

Just as terrorism is international, so too is its funding. We know terrorism funding is obtained from illegitimate sources as well as from legitimate ones. We also know that some of the funds raised to finance these violent crimes originate in Canada or transit through our country. One only has to think of the case of Momin Khawaja, who was found guilty in 2008 of, among other charges, providing funds to facilitate terrorist activities.

With the 20 million or so financial transaction reports that we receive from businesses every year, FINTRAC is able to provide actionable financial intelligence that assists police and national security agencies in protecting Canada and Canadians. This intelligence allows us to establish links between individuals and groups in Canada and abroad that support terrorist activities, thereby allowing us to detect the financing of these activities.

Last year, we provided 1,143 disclosures of financial intelligence to our regime partners to assist them in their investigations of money laundering, terrorism financing, and threats to the security of Canada. Of these disclosures, 234 were related to terrorism financing and threats to the security of Canada. This is more than one disclosure related to terrorism financing every business day.

In April 2014, the RCMP's integrated national security enforcement teams in Ontario and Quebec recognized our contribution to a terrorism financing investigation on the International Relief Fund for the Afflicted and Needy-Canada, or IRFAN-Canada, an organization allegedly linked to the terrorist entity Hamas. The RCMP has also acknowledged FINTRAC's contribution to Project Smooth, which led to the arrest of two individuals for conspiring to carry out a terrorist attack against a VIA passenger train travelling from New York to Toronto.

Financial intelligence has become a key component of our police and national security partners' terrorism investigations. FINTRAC has provided a number of disclosures as part of the government's broader effort to combat terrorism and those who have supported terrorists at home and abroad.

Given the complex and transnational nature of terrorism, FINTRAC maintains very strong and productive working relationships with our police and national security partners. In order for our financial intelligence to be actionable, it must be closely aligned with our partners' priorities. We also work closely with other financial intelligence units around the world to share intelligence and expertise, broadening our reach and analyses of international financial transactions. As soon as we learned of the Sydney hostage-taking in Australia and the Charlie Hebdo attacks in France, we undertook proactive research on targets at the tactical level and offered assistance. Our allies did the same for us after the attacks in Canada last year.

As part of our mandate, FINTRAC also produces classified strategic financial intelligence reports on suspected terrorism financing activities and trends. For example, we have undertaken a strategic/geo-spacial analysis on Syria-related high-risk flows by analyzing international electronic funds transfer reports.

As a result of both our tactical and strategic financial intelligence work, FINTRAC has assumed a leadership role in the international efforts taking place at the Financial Action Task Force, within the Egmont Group of international financial intelligence units, and in other organizations to help combat terrorism financing worldwide.

The success of Canada's anti-money laundering and anti-terrorism financing regime is dependent on the dedicated efforts of all players, from businesses on the front lines of Canada's financial system to prosecutors securing the conviction of money launderers and terrorism financiers. Together, we are producing significant results for Canadians.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you, Mr. Cossette, for your presentation.

Colleagues, we'll begin members' questions with Mr. Cullen. We'll do six-minute rounds, please.

9:10 a.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you to our witnesses.

Let me start by way of a statement. The notion that money would source itself out of Canada to support attacks here or abroad is a concern shared by all of us at the table and certainly all members of Parliament and the broader Canadian public. Thank you for your work.

Let's ask some questions and seek effectiveness of that work to understand where the holes are and where we need to do better. First, I have one question for you, Mr. Stewart. I was listening to your presentation and reading along. You made some comments about constitutionality checks, but I couldn't find them in your opening statement. Can you just review what you said? I think you may have made the comments in French during your presentation.

9:10 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Rob Stewart

I think you would be referring to the fact that FINTRAC is subject to review by the Privacy Commissioner.

9:10 a.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Yes, that could be. Again, I may have missed it in the written statement that was given to the committee. Perhaps you could point it out to me and then I could move on to some other questions.

9:10 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Rob Stewart

More generally, the issue here is that we have to respect the constitutional division of powers in the charter and the privacy rights of Canadians, so this is the way in which the regime is constructed. There isn't an active review of that.

9:10 a.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

There is, or there isn't?

9:10 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Rob Stewart

There is not. It would be incorporated in the context of the broader five-year reviews.

9:10 a.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Why is there not an active review? I'm just trying to understand and I don't claim any expertise in the work that you do. Why not do an active review of that balance? Those are extraordinary powers, to be able to look into somebody's financial information and track such things. Why not an active review? Why only every five years?

9:10 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Rob Stewart

I'm not quite sure what you mean by an active review. The regime itself is subject to a number of reviews, in particular by Parliament every five years, so I would think that would be an appropriate basis on which to examine that question. There is in some sense here the need to understand that FINTRAC, to the extent that we here today are representing the regime and the role of FINTRAC, is restricted from obtaining personal information.

Would you like to add to that?

9:10 a.m.

Director, Financial Transactions and Reports Analysis Centre of Canada

Gérald Cossette

If I may, Mr. Chair, the first thing is that FINTRAC receives information that is provided by the different financial sectors in Canada. We do not have the means technically or legally to access the bank accounts of Canadians. All the information that is provided to us comes from the businesses based on a certain number of criteria, either objective criteria, transactions that are higher than $10,000 for electronic fund transfers, because you know disbursements of higher than $10,000.... So the first thing is that we do not have direct access to the financial information.

9:10 a.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Has FINTRAC ever sought direct access to that information—

9:10 a.m.

Director, Financial Transactions and Reports Analysis Centre of Canada

9:10 a.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

—to compel lawyers dealing with cases to deliver that information?

9:10 a.m.

Director, Financial Transactions and Reports Analysis Centre of Canada

Gérald Cossette

No. In fact the legislation has been designed specifically to ensure that FINTRAC is the only organization that can access that data holding. So neither the police forces nor CSIS have access to our database. That's the first thing.

The second issue is that we can disclose exclusively for money laundering and terrorism financing national security purposes. If there is a chance that the information we provide could be used in an investigation and prosecution, then we would disclose. Otherwise, we do not disclose that information.

9:10 a.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

You mentioned such incidents, both the attacks in France and Australia. Was such information disclosed to either of those authorities from FINTRAC?

9:10 a.m.

Director, Financial Transactions and Reports Analysis Centre of Canada

Gérald Cossette

If we had something in our holdings and if what we could see related to those operations, yes, but I will not comment on specific operations.

9:15 a.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

That's more of a broad comment, I suppose.

In the orientation of this meeting it's difficult, because of the sensitivity of the information, that we have these meetings in public, that we can't find out what you're disclosing and what you're not. In getting at the effectiveness of how we're doing, was any information revealed on the attacks here in Ottawa to either of your agencies through FINTRAC or the MLATs? Was money used and then tracked through your regimes connected to the October 22 attack?

9:15 a.m.

Director, Financial Transactions and Reports Analysis Centre of Canada

Gérald Cossette

I will not comment specifically on the attacks. What I can say, though, is that we did disclose information and the information we disclosed is either a series of transactions or it is information that the financial institution may report to us because it was suspicious. For example, it may be Mr. so-and-so transferred x amount of money.

9:15 a.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

It's going to be difficult for us, and I suppose very difficult for you. Both of you in your statements named a number of particularly high-profile attacks that have happened both here and abroad, and there is some, I suppose, almost insinuation that there was a connection to terrorist financing, yet we don't know. We don't know if the attacks here in October had terrorist financing that enabled them or didn't. Was money being transferred between entities both here and abroad that enabled those attacks on Charlie Hebdo, or the attacks in Australia that had Canadian sources or implications for Canada? You understand my question. It's difficult to understand the effectiveness if we can't get any information as to whether something happened or not.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Could we have a brief response, please?

9:15 a.m.

Director, Financial Transactions and Reports Analysis Centre of Canada

Gérald Cossette

The issue is that FINTRAC is not an investigative body. Therefore, while we do receive information, we work with that information and then we disclose it to either CSIS, the RCMP, or local police forces. The fusion of what the financial transactions involve and what the enforcement agencies know about a specific individual is what would reveal something. The transactions themselves do not necessarily reveal terrorism financing. Terrorism financing may have legitimate sources—someone's salary, for instance—or it may have illegitimate sources, that is, money that may be raised through illicit activities. The transactions and the individuals may show something, but the transactions themselves do not necessarily demonstrate that the money was used for nefarious purposes.