Thank you all for being here.
I missed the week prior to our break, but I would say that on a personal basis, I find this the most fascinating discussion we've had yet, because we're really getting into the meat of the matter. I don't know where to begin.
Mr. Rafiq, I think you were honest in your evaluation toward the end. The danger of throwing money at a problem is, of course, that we build bureaucracies. Then, rather than treating the problem, we've created this whole structure that now demands to be fed, and that certainly doesn't help.
I don't have enough time, and I think we'd need hours to talk about this, but it would be interesting to hear your thoughts about how we should proceed. I don't want to be cutting, but I suppose you would probably argue that you haven't had enough time to prove that that would be the solution, but how has that worked for you?
The problem is we live in a free society where, as you so eloquently stated and I think it was stated as well by some of the other members, these people are able to just move amongst us. It's so difficult. We don't live in a society like China's in which people get caught, have a quick trial, and join the firing squad in the stadium on Saturday. This is a free society and we value those things.
Ms. Vonn, I think you put that out as well.
I'm going to get to my question, but I just need to get this out, because I know, having worked in this committee and in the ethics committee, that so often we heard from law enforcement that they need tools.
Mr. Clement, I have sons in the law enforcement profession, and we repeatedly hear that they need tools, and the tools they're specifically asking for are the tools we will provide in Bill C-51.
On the other hand, we have the civil liberty groups saying that we're going to impede on people's rights. This is a real problem. I think we recognize it's a real problem.
I'm just going to share something with you very quickly about police officers, and you know this as well. The rank and file, the majority of police officers, are not able to do this work because first of all, they're not trained, and, second, there are so many regulations and so many oversights that impede their work. So this is a real problem. This is something that is not easily remedied.
I have one last point and then I'll get to my question. We know that these groups go to certain areas. I've heard that from police enforcement as well. They will target areas around jails. They'll live in those areas. Even if we were to apply some approach to engaging our population, our young people, these groups know who to target.
I think this has been asked before and I'm going to ask anybody to jump in. Where do we find the balance between what civil liberty groups are asking for and the tools that police enforcement agencies have insisted on for years and years and years?
I'll start with you, Mr. Clement.