No, I didn't think it would to you.
Evidence of meeting #76 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was need.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #76 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was need.
A recording is available from Parliament.
10:05 a.m.
Conservative
Mark Adler Conservative York Centre, ON
Totally respectfully.
Mr. Clement, a number of organizations here in Canada have had their funding or charitable organization status taken away from them, like IRFAN and the Muslim Association of Canada. The key really, and this is what we're talking about here, is to find the money. That's really the key to all of this.
I mean, this isn't something new; we have seen this through history. Certainly Herbert Hoover, when he was president in 1929 during the whole problem in Chicago with Al Capone and all of that, didn't call in the director of the FBI; he called in the director of the Treasury to defeat organized crime in Chicago. They did so through the creation of this group ultimately called “the untouchables”.
Do we need a group like that today to focus on finding the money trail?
10:05 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Clement Advisory Group
I believe the model for the integrated proceeds of crime, which was originally permitted by Parliament and which brought all of the current federal resources to bear in a collective environment along with our outside policing partners, was an extremely effective model. It's one that I believe would still lend a lot of credibility to what we're doing today. It brings skill sets together and it's needed.
10:05 a.m.
Conservative
Mark Adler Conservative York Centre, ON
You did indicate that the RCMP is constantly in training mode. We have to get away from a group that's in training mode constantly. We need professionals who can deal with this on a consistent and regular basis, I think.
10:05 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Clement Advisory Group
If you look at the FBI and their model, it's because they're a federal resource; they're not trying to be all things to all people. They have a very specific mandate of white-collar crime. They have specialists in cybercrime and terrorist financing. The RCMP has to get to that.
I know it's not the point of this committee, but I said recently to Senator Lang that maybe it's time we looked at what the RCMP's real role should be. I would strongly suggest that it be federal, and as much as it pains me—I started in uniform—it's time to give that uniform up and focus where they're needed the most.
10:05 a.m.
Conservative
Mark Adler Conservative York Centre, ON
A lot of the issue is that a lot of our provinces rely on the RCMP to be their provincial police. What percentage is that, do you know? I'm just curious.
10:05 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Clement Advisory Group
I stand to be corrected, but I think the RCMP is around 70%, because they're municipal, provincial, city.
10:10 a.m.
Conservative
Mark Adler Conservative York Centre, ON
Okay, thank you.
Mr. McGuire, do we need some kind of international...? You mentioned Mr. Tupman's testimony a couple of weeks ago here at the committee. He also brought up the whole issue of the accounting profession. Do we need to deputize accountants to...?
10:10 a.m.
National Leader, AML Practice Investigative and Forensic Services, MNP LLP
Well, fortunately we have. Let me qualify that and say that professionally designated Canadian accountants are covered. Accountants with some letters from somewhere else, who aren't professionally designated, are not covered by our legislation, and neither are bookkeepers.
I don't think the scope is big enough in the legislation at the moment, but professional accountants are covered by the legislation.
10:10 a.m.
Conservative
Mark Adler Conservative York Centre, ON
I would go back to the old kind of organized crime that we always saw in the movies, where they'd all be sitting around the boardroom table. Two or three of the people sitting around the table would be accountants.
10:10 a.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!
10:10 a.m.
Conservative
Mark Adler Conservative York Centre, ON
We heard also that there's too much reporting, so we're finding a lot of false positives. Should we be over-reporting? We've heard that we just don't find needles through more hay; I don't really believe that.
Is over-reporting better than under-reporting?
10:10 a.m.
National Leader, AML Practice Investigative and Forensic Services, MNP LLP
I'm going to take the civil liberty aspect out of this, because I'm just a humble bean counter.
From my perspective, it is better to have more intelligence than less when it comes to looking into terrorist financing. I think the focus should be on determining the false-positive rate. If we have 1,000 filings and only one is credible, that relationship might require too many man-hours and involve too much information being transferred. If the relationship is more like 10 to one, then it seems like a reasonable amount to me.
10:10 a.m.
Conservative
Mark Adler Conservative York Centre, ON
Mr. Clement, we've heard about protection versus prevention. Where would you say the emphasis should be?
10:10 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Clement Advisory Group
I'd like to say I would hope there's a balance. Number one, when you're looking at these, protection has to be front and foremost initially. I agree with our colleague from the U.K. that we need a multi-faceted strategy. That's what we need to sit down and come up with.
10:10 a.m.
Conservative
Mark Adler Conservative York Centre, ON
I think you stated earlier we're not fighting armies in uniforms anymore.
10:10 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Clement Advisory Group
That's right.
10:10 a.m.
Conservative
10:10 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
Thank you, Mr. Adler.
Before I go to Ms. Crockatt, colleagues, we will have time for four five-minute rounds after Ms. Crockatt, so one NDP, one Liberal, and two Conservative after that.
Ms. Crockatt, you'll have a seven-minute round. Go ahead, please.
10:10 a.m.
Conservative
Joan Crockatt Conservative Calgary Centre, AB
Thank you to our witnesses today. We're hearing some fascinating views, and I value your experience.
I wanted to probe the organized crime angle just for a moment.
We've heard evidence—I believe it was from you, Mr. Clement—that these organizations can start by dealing with issues like fraud and kidnapping and drugs. Did I hear you say that they then move into terrorism? If that's the case, what would their motivation be?
10:10 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Clement Advisory Group
No, it was probably misunderstood. They may not move into terrorism, but you have to look at the terrorist organizations today for exactly the reasons that were iterated by our colleague from the U.K. They've had to move into the criminal milieu to get funding. They are capitalizing on what we traditionally looked at as the organized crime milieu.
10:10 a.m.
Conservative
Joan Crockatt Conservative Calgary Centre, AB
Okay.
I'm sitting in on this committee, so I'm hearing some of this, but having covered a lot of these issues as a journalist, I'm wondering if we know that there are companies out there that you're not reluctant to name, like Western Union, for example, do we not have the tools to curtail this illegal activity?