Evidence of meeting #84 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was interns.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
What we haven't seen before is this retroactive application going back in time and essentially making what was illegal now legal. Am I characterizing that properly?
Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
Well, there are precedents for a retroactive application of laws; I just haven't seen a case like this one in particular, because the retroactivity here goes back to even before the law that is being made retroactive even existed. It wasn't even voted for by Parliament. And the particular facts of this case are following an investigation.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Let me stop you right there. The government has argued that it was the will of Parliament and that there was a technicality that wasn't imagined and that this is just correcting that technicality. It argues that that's why it had to go back in time and correct things. You're suggesting that even before Parliament passed this act, this is how far back this amendment under this omnibus bill goes to make something now legal that was at the time illegal. Is that what you're suggesting?
Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
As far as I understand the laws that are still applicable to this day, ELRA applies at the same time as the Access to Information Act. ELRA never ousted the jurisdiction of the Access to Information Act. The Access to Information Act applies notwithstanding any other act of Parliament, and the government has to abide by its obligations under the Access to Information Act.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
What's so important about this part of the Access to Information Act? Why is it so essential? I'm going well beyond the issue of the registry, to what it is to hold or not hold government records, to destroy or not destroy government records. Why is that important in a free democracy?
Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
It's important because that's the regime we set in place in the Access to Information Act. We have given people the right to request information from their governments. We have provided a scheme whereby there is a process of complaint, a process of investigation, at the first level, and then a process whereby people have the right to go to Federal Court to have their redress. We're nullifying this entire process with this retroactive amendment.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
This is what I want to get at, that the right of citizens to seek documents from their government is a fundamental right and means of holding a government to account.
Is that true?
Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
The Supreme Court of Canada has even gone as far as to say that there's a derivative right to freedom of expression under section 2.(b) of the charter.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
So this is a charter right, then. The freedom of expression is to be able to go and seek information from government. I'm trying to apply this to other issues that have come before Canadians. I'm thinking of the sponsorship scandal. I'm thinking of some of these other things in which the pursuit of documentation was eventually important in revealing government misbehaviour or corruption.
Are we creating a precedent here that when government gets in trouble, they can just go back in time and allow for the retroactive destruction of documents?
Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
As I have said publicly so far in relation to this case, I think it sets a perilous precedent in Canadian history and Canadian democracy. There is no other way I can characterize it.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Cullen.
We will go to Mr. Saxton, please.
Conservative
Andrew Saxton Conservative North Vancouver, BC
Thank you, Chair.
Thanks to our witnesses for being here today.
My first questions are in regard to internships here in Canada.
Some people believe that educational internships are as important or sometimes even more important than classroom instruction in preparing a student for their career in the workplace.
Mr. Champagne, do you agree with that?
Conservative
President, Canadian Intern Association
I absolutely agree that internships are very valuable for the interns themselves and for students. At the same time, many of the internships that we're discussing today are, in fact, work. Entry-level employees have value, and young people's work also has value, and the employers that we're discussing today—big, federally regulated employers—have the ability not only to provide basic workplace protections to these young workers but also to pay them.
Conservative
Andrew Saxton Conservative North Vancouver, BC
Our government also recognizes the importance of internships, and that is the reason we believe that interns should receive basic benefits and protections in order not to be exploited. However, it's a balancing act, and I think everybody recognizes that if you are too strict on employers, they may cease the internship programs altogether, which Mr. Farrell has referred to earlier.
Would you agree with that as well, that it's a balancing act, Mr. Champagne?
Executive Director, Canadian Alliance of Student Associations
I think we have to look at it to see exactly which regulations are supposedly too burdensome. If an employer can't hire an intern or someone without providing them protections against sexual harassment, or working a certain number of hours, or any of those provisions that are awarded to other employees, then I think organizations and federally regulated companies have to look at their business practices to see what exactly it is about these regulations that make it too burdensome to bring on an intern.
I don't think that is too much to ask.
Conservative
Andrew Saxton Conservative North Vancouver, BC
We agree with you as well, and that's why those protections will come into place. I want that to be on the record, that these labour standard regulations will reflect the unique situation of unpaid internships and will be developed in consultation with stakeholders. At a minimum it is expected that they will ensure that unpaid interns receive maximum-hours-of-work protections, as well as unpaid bereavement and unpaid six leave, and that they are protected from sexual harassment.
We can assume that those will come into effect. We're moving beyond that now. If those do come into effect, do you agree that it's a balancing act, that if we're too strict on employers, the availability of internships may dry up?
Executive Director, Canadian Alliance of Student Associations
I do believe, obviously, that there is some sort of balancing act, and that's why I think there are certain exceptions that need to be provided to internships. For example, providing academic credit instead of...and you sort of...minimum-wage pay is something that I think we can accept as an exception. Obviously, length and duration of employment as part of an internship program would, again, be another exception you need for interns. So there are, obviously, certain exceptions.
And yes, there is trying to find that right balance between allowing interns to gain valuable experience that they can use in future careers and the employer's being able to have that flexibility to bring these interns on board and provide them with a learning opportunity and experience that they can use for the rest of their lives.
Conservative
Andrew Saxton Conservative North Vancouver, BC
Do you believe that our government has achieved that balance with the changes in the recent budget implementation act?
Executive Director, Canadian Alliance of Student Associations
From what I've seen in at least the first part, in terms of creating that exception for interns, the government has definitely taken a very important first step and recognizes the importance of the need to help provide those protections to interns—at least from what I've seen, and I'm not the lawyer on the panel here. There are additional provisions, and as you mentioned, if they are forthcoming, then I believe those are the necessary steps that need to be taken and will be taken to adequately protect those interns.
Conservative
Andrew Saxton Conservative North Vancouver, BC
If those basic protections, that you mentioned earlier and I just quoted, come into effect, do you also agree that our government has achieved the balance necessary?
President, Canadian Intern Association
I do not believe we've achieved that balance in any sense.