Evidence of meeting #84 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was interns.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jonathan Champagne  Executive Director, Canadian Alliance of Student Associations
Claire Seaborn  President, Canadian Intern Association
Tim Gleason  Partner, Dewart Gleason LLP
John Farrell  Executive Director, Federally Regulated Employers - Transportation and Communications (FETCO)
Graham Henderson  President and Chief Executive Officer, Music Canada
Suzanne Legault  Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

10:10 a.m.

Joyce Batemen

Madam Legault—

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Unfortunately, Ms. Bateman, I have to move on. Thank you for your round.

We'll go to Mr. Cash, please.

10:10 a.m.

NDP

Andrew Cash NDP Davenport, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to first address a question to Mr. Gleason.

Before tabling our Bill C-636, Bell Mobility, one of Canada's largest and most profitable telecoms, ran a controversial unpaid internship program that took advantage of hundreds of unpaid, non-academic interns.

Would the current bill, the one we're discussing now, stop such large-scale unpaid programs, or would it facilitate them?

10:10 a.m.

Partner, Dewart Gleason LLP

Tim Gleason

I think the answer is yes and no.

It would stop them if they exceeded the twelve months, or in some cases four months, but if it were up to four months, the bill would not impede those programs at all.

10:10 a.m.

NDP

Andrew Cash NDP Davenport, ON

Okay.

I have to acknowledge a comment from the government side on including measures at some point to bring interns into part 3 of the code. I'm unclear, though, as to whether this is going to be enshrined in law or a regulation.

What I want to ask, first of all, is whether there is any logical reason why the government would not have included these measures in the bill in the first place.

10:10 a.m.

Partner, Dewart Gleason LLP

Tim Gleason

Well, I can't think of a logical reason. I've heard some people comment on balance today and say that the necessary balance requires excluding these people from these protections. I don't understand that. I think we've long recognized that there's a floor beneath which we will not permit employers to go, and that part 3 of the Canada Labour Code is that floor.

Excluding them from the code and saying that we might address it in regulations places it, first of all, at the discretion of cabinet, not subject to the scrutiny of Parliament. There's no clarity at all with respect to the plans to do that. I think one of the members of the committee suggested that we can assume that will happen, but I don't see that we can assume that will happen when we're expressly excluding these people from the protections in the code. They're workers like anybody else.

10:10 a.m.

NDP

Andrew Cash NDP Davenport, ON

Extrapolating from that, if these measures—as you say, the floor for protections for unpaid interns—are regulations or are included in some kind of cabinet initiative beyond the oversight of Parliament, is that enough? Or does that open the door for some other kind of diminution of protections for interns?

10:10 a.m.

Partner, Dewart Gleason LLP

Tim Gleason

Well, certainly it could be enough. It could be enough if the regulations were drafted properly and reflected exactly what's in the code or perhaps even better, but again, there's no clarity with respect to what those plans are, and those regulations can be changed at will, at the pleasure of the cabinet.

10:10 a.m.

NDP

Andrew Cash NDP Davenport, ON

The government side likes to put up the straw man argument of employees suing large corporations. Imagine that. Imagine a young unpaid intern going up against Bell, right? That's scary stuff, right, for Bell?

Why would the government put forth such arguments as some kind of justification for not providing that solid floor? By the way, on that floor, not one of us in this room would put their own children in those kinds of circumstances. Why would the government do that?

10:15 a.m.

Partner, Dewart Gleason LLP

Tim Gleason

Again, I can't answer for the government, although I think it was an odd question that was posed earlier. There's nothing in the statute that would prevent interns from suing employers for a breach of any agreement they have with them. This statute or any statute wouldn't prevent them from suing, so I don't understand that question put by the other member.

That said, your comment about the floor that we wouldn't subject our children to is apt. I have children of working age, and I can say that I can afford to subsidize my children to work for free, but when I was their age, I couldn't afford it. When I had to article to become a lawyer, we were paid for that, and now in Ontario we're introducing unpaid internships for articling students. I can say that I would not be a lawyer today if we'd had those when I came out of law school; I just could not afford to work for 12 months for free.

By excluding interns from these protections, we're reserving the advancement—all of the good things the government is saying that internships do for people—for the children of the wealthy.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

You have about one minute, Mr. Cash.

10:15 a.m.

NDP

Andrew Cash NDP Davenport, ON

I want to clarify this quickly because we hear this on the government side too when they talk about the value of internships, but we do have to make a distinction between internships that are paid and internships that are not. They're very different things.

Finally, I'd just like to say that our bill was inspired in part by the death of Andy Ferguson, a 22-year-old intern who worked excessive hours, got into his car at five o'clock in the morning after working all night long, drove home, fell asleep at the wheel, crashed, and died. Would the measures included in this bill...? In regard to the fact that we're not including caps on hours of work, if those were included, would that affect young people in a positive way?

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

A brief response, Mr. Gleason.

June 2nd, 2015 / 10:15 a.m.

Partner, Dewart Gleason LLP

Tim Gleason

Yes, those protections would affect young people profoundly.

10:15 a.m.

NDP

Andrew Cash NDP Davenport, ON

Thank you.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you, Mr. Cash.

We'll go to Mr. Cannan, please.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Ron Cannan Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

To our witnesses, good morning and thank you for being here.

I represent the riding of Kelowna—Lake Country in the Okanagan, where we have UBC Okanagan and Okanagan College, so I appreciate the support that our students provide for our community and our country.

I have just a couple of quick questions for Mr. Champagne.

As far as the economic action plan goes, it's looking forward as a budget and working with our students. It talks about making student loans work for families. I'm wondering if you could comment on the three initiatives that are being proposed as we move forward over the next few years.

They include providing $119 million over four years, starting in 2016-17, to reduce the expected parental contribution under the Canada student loans program needs assessment process. There are also proposals to provide $116 million over four years to eliminate in-study student income from the Canada student loans program needs assessment process. Also, with regard to expanding the eligibility for Canada student grants, the budget is proposing to provide $184 million over four years to expand eligibility for Canada student grants to students in short-duration programs.

Could you comment on those three initiatives as we move forward to help our students across Canada?

10:15 a.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Alliance of Student Associations

Jonathan Champagne

I would say those three announcements in Budget 2015, from what we can tell, are the largest investments in student financial aid since 2008. I think they are a strong positive step and a great indication from this government in investing in young people and their education.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Ron Cannan Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC

Thanks. I appreciate that, and also the fact of internships. I was thinking back to my younger years when I ended up managing a grocery store and eventually owning a convenience store with a gas station. I got that experience in school, working for a dollar an hour, in a work experience program. I share the view that there's always a need for increased regulation and protection.

To elaborate on Mr. Saxton's comment that he didn't have a chance to finish, are the regulations that have been proposed an appropriate step in terms of the element of balance, as we move forward and review the regulations that are being put in place and consider as we move forward?

10:15 a.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Alliance of Student Associations

Jonathan Champagne

I guess I also wanted to briefly touch on this idea of balance.

When we go outside the internship and coop sphere for a second, as a society, and as a government, and as a country we've already established balance when it comes to protecting general employees, whether it's with the minimum wage, workplace safety, or all of the extra protections as well. I think we've worked between the private sector and appropriate legislation and regulations to achieve that balance where people can work, people can earn a living, people are not worried about being dismissed for no reason, and those sorts of things.

To have on the one hand that balance with employees and then for some reason, on the other hand, to have the balance shift so drastically for non-employees is a bit of a question mark. We should work to maintain that and keep that balance as close as possible.

10:20 a.m.

Conservative

Ron Cannan Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC

Thank you very much.

Shifting over to Ms. Legault, I wanted to know if you could comment about the original intent of the Ending the Long Gun Registry Act in 2011?

10:20 a.m.

Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Suzanne Legault

I think you'd have to ask a member of Parliament about the original intent of the Ending the Long Gun Registry Act. I am assuming it was the destruction of all the records in the long gun registry.

10:20 a.m.

Conservative

Ron Cannan Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC

Correct. All the records. Okay, I appreciate that.

Shifting over to Mr. Henderson for my last couple of minutes.

As an amateur musician, and not a professional like Mr. Cash and a few others in the House of Commons, I appreciate the culture and the value that Canadian musicians and artists provide for our country. I was wondering if you could elaborate a little on previous length of copyright in Canada compared to other countries around the world and the length now.

10:20 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Music Canada

Graham Henderson

Our our copyright protection extended for 50 years, as opposed to 70, from the date of publication of the recording in question. There was a 20-year difference.

10:20 a.m.

Conservative

Ron Cannan Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC

Songwriters and composers already have lifetime copyright protection, right? I think the principle behind the recent changes is that no artists would wake up and be able to hear their work without their owning it. Is that basically the understanding?