Finance Committee on Oct. 5th, 2017

[Shari Caudron]

We recognize that housing is the primary issue.

We deliver programs pertaining to employment. One of the biggest issues we found, and it's a barrier for our students, is that they are homeless or they're couch surfing. We have predators in the community who target them, and so they end up couch surfing in the wrong places. That leads to addictions, and addictions lead to suicides. They go down that path.

If they had student housing or if they had some place that was safe for them to stay, we could prevent more addiction issues. We could prevent them from falling over. We have drop-in centres for them so that they can make productive choices. We have youth centres for them to participate in activities. But for them to have housing is a significant issue.

If they have no place to live, if they don't have that stability, they will go down the wrong path. We can provide all the supports we want, but if they don't have a safe roof over their head, then there's not a whole lot we can do. They will come in the next day and spend time at our drop-in centres. They will spend time with us or just stop in for coffee because they have no place else to go.

Setting up housing, even student housing for our friendship centres so that.... You don't want to call it homelessness. People you'll deal with will say, “Not in my backyard.” They don't want to see a homeless shelter.

The way I look at it is student housing or participant housing. We have multiple houses in the Northwest Territories that are sitting there empty. What I see is we do the renovations and put house parents in there. Now there is a safe room for them to stay in. They always have a roof over their head. Then they're able to make productive choices.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you.

Mr. Kelly.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Thank you all for your presentations, and that includes members of the public who have come here today and those who made statements at the beginning of our meeting.

I was struck by the way it has been put, that there is the ability to engage in true nation building through investment in infrastructure in the north. This is a way to, perhaps, frame the challenges of living in the north and the potential that the north has.

I'll start with Mr. Stewart. I'll ask you to perhaps use some of the time to make the case to the rest of Canada, through our committee here and through giving advice to the committee, and then through the committee to the government on its policy, that it's not just about helping people who live in the north, many of whom need help, need access to employment, need better services, and indeed need the basics of life, shelter, and the ability to cope in a high-cost environment, but there's also a case to be made for all Canadians to invest in the north.

[David Stewart]

Thank you for that.

There are two elements that I'd like to talk about very briefly.

One is the economic potential of the north. There is huge resource potential. The reality is that our economy is relatively weakly developed, or immature. What this means is that when we do a mine in the Northwest Territories, when we do an oil and gas pipeline or a project, the economic benefits often accrue out to provinces in the south. There are particularly huge impacts in places such as Ontario and Alberta, which provide a great deal of our goods and services. What's good for the north in terms of opening up that economic potential of both our mineral and our oil and gas sectors is often very good for the rest of Canada. That transfers over to things like federal taxes, and those sorts of things, both corporate and the overall personal tax.

Again, in terms of development in the north, although we prefer that mines and those kinds of developments hire locals, often they hire people from southern Canada, as well. So it is helping those economies, as well. That's one element.

The other side of it is the issue around sovereignty. If Canada wants to be known as a northern country and exert itself in the Arctic, having strong communities is the best way of doing this. Strong communities mean having affordable housing. It means having an economy where people can live. I think that's a huge part of the argument to the rest of Canada as to why investing in the north is a worthwhile endeavour.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

I'll ask Ms. Caudron to elaborate a bit further.

You made an excellent case for the sheer immediate day-to-day urgency around access to adequate shelter, that it's difficult to really focus on anything past having adequate safety and having an adequate roof over your head.

You spoke about the absence of a true market in shelter in many communities. It's not as in larger centres where a home has value; it can be sold by somebody who is moving on, and a newcomer to the community buys it. This is not the reality of a remote community. Clearly, poverty in places is part of why there's no market in housing.

Can you talk about how we can get beyond this? These are problems that have been seemingly intractable for decades, but perhaps take a few minutes to tell us about strategies to overcome long-term poverty in remote communities.

[Shari Caudron]

As I mentioned, you're looking at three different pillars on that. One is the hard to house. That just needs to be a facility so that they have a roof over their head, a place to go home to every night. Another part of it is for seniors and persons with disabilities. They can't afford to purchase homes, and they become dependent upon the system. The system puts them in places that are not necessarily acceptable.

We have a number of federal houses that are sitting empty that probably need asbestos abatement done on them and multiple renovations, but the potential to utilize these facilities and have the funding to make it work through our centres could start to alleviate some of these issues we have in the smaller communities. If not, then we'd need the construction of a new facility, because currently the one we have in Hay River where most people are placed is—I don't know if you have ever been to East Hastings, in downtown Vancouver, but the first four floors of this place are a replica of what you see there. We have a population of 3,600. We have high crime rates, prostitution, everything. When they fall off the grid, when they are couch surfing, they fall into that group, or when they come out of treatment they get put into that same facility where they are surrounded by drugs and alcohol.

It's on multiple levels, but if we can just get them right before they're homeless, get them when they come to us, and get them into a safe place, then we can provide the ongoing supports. We do counselling. We do programming. We do just about everything to address those needs.

It's not just the house. It's the ongoing supports we need for them. We need to help our youth. We're losing them. We have a gap between the ages of 20 and 29. It's a lost generation. The friendship centres are able to provide those supports for them, but we just don't have the funding to be able to do everything we possibly can.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

As bad as East Hastings is, at least they get supports. You likely don't have that. I've spent some time there in a previous life as solicitor general.

Mr. Sorbara, please introduce yourself. You weren't here when we did that.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Excuse my absence, Mr. Chair.

I'm Francesco Sorbara. I represent a wonderful, as I always say, dynamic riding—but every riding in Canada is dynamic including the one that Michael represents—of Vaughan—Woodbridge, which literally borders the city of Toronto. You can walk from the city of Toronto across the street to my riding.

I will have to say, though, I grew up in northern British Columbia in a town called Prince Rupert where I know the aboriginal indigenous community very well. There are a number of communities around it from the Haida, Tsimshian, Gitga'at, Gitwinksihlkw, the Nisga'a, and I can go through the rest of the names.

There's a big basketball tournament held there every year, and there's the fishing industry. Also, unfortunately, it's where Highway 16, otherwise known as the Highway of Tears, is. As a kid I used to fish along the Skeena River with my family, and so forth, so I'm very familiar with it.

I have two questions. Please re-emphasize how important the friendship centres are. I know they exist in Prince Rupert and I know they exist in downtown Toronto. The friendship centres are an outreach avenue for kids to go to.

For the Northwest Territories in general, how important is the idea of sustainable economic development? If you look at the province of Manitoba, it seems to have been able to get on to sustainable economic development. It's kind of stable. Here we're benefiting from diamond exploration and tourism.

I know you guys have talked about base versus per capita funding, and I get that, but please talk about those two avenues, the friendship centres and sustainable economic development for the north, please.

[Shari Caudron]

If you start building that dam, I'll help you build your workforce. That's what we do. We find out where the projects are in the long term. With the training that we do we train for specific jobs. We're not only doing the training; we're also providing them with counselling, appreciation, and kindness. Sometimes that's all people need. We can certainly contribute to the economy by not only bringing in federal funding to deliver to our centres but also when we look at these larger projects we want our local people in those jobs.

With regard to the marine industry up here, 80% of those jobs go directly to people from the east coast and west coast. Why are our local people not getting those jobs? It's because they don't have the training to do it. We have used our skills link funding to develop the marine training program and we're taking them down to BCIT because we've developed a partnership with them. That $2 million that's going into that port and wages that have been leaving the north every year. I'm building a workforce to keep that money in the Northwest Territories.

[Sara Brown]

Certainly, strong, viable, communities are very much reliant on having sustainable economic development. When your workforce isn't employed, you just can't function so it is absolutely critical. That's where a lot of the initiatives that have been discussed by everybody here are so critical to ensuring that viability and sovereignty as well.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Mr. Stewart or Sandy.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

I think Anthony wants in at some point, too.

Go ahead, Mr. Stewart, and then Anthony.

[David Stewart]

Thank you.

In terms of sustainability, I think for the GNWT it really involves finding ways to do development in a manner that balances both the environmental protection and the protection of our lands with the development that creates the jobs and the opportunities that people need. Resource extraction and mining has been a foundation of our economy. It is a foundation and we need to build from that to take advantages of those opportunities but also to diversify.

Mr. McLeod talked about the tourists. You can't help but see the expansion of the tourism industry. We're getting loads and loads of individuals from China and Korea as well as our more traditional markets in Japan. You need the diversification but you can't ignore your base as well. It's to do it in a way that times those projects to make sure that it's sustainable in the longer term and to have the people be able to take advantage of those opportunities with training and the labour market. Also, the diversification side I think is the other side of the fence.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you.

Mr. Rabesca will have the last word in this round.

I think you wanted in.

[Anthony Rabesca, President, Northwest Territories/Nunavut Council of Friendship Centres]

My name is Tony Rabesca. I'm a Tlicho person.

Some of the issues I heard here today are very important for our communities. In the past I worked with CMHC and we did research on what I call “strong like two house”, based on building a house based on traditional knowledge and based on modern technology. We did some research and found out that one of the things we were missing was the community voice and the elders and the youth.

In the past, when the house was built, it used to be open. People looked at each other, listened to each other. Elders spoke and the young people listened. But today, you look at the house and everybody has their own doors. Youth have their own doors. They close the doors. They slam the doors. In the research that we did in the past, CMHC supported the project. We did a workshop with elders, and the community and the youth and then we listened to how we could build a home based on this research.

We worked with the technology and an architect to build a house. One of the things we found out about was that because of the past, back in the 1940s with the residential schools, we needed to look at bringing back the traditional knowledge of what is a home. When we asked the elders what is a home, the elders said, “Our home is our land. Our land is our home.” Based on that, we looked at some of the things from the past.

The University of Alberta came to see us and asked whether we could work together. The University of Alberta is now working on a project based on our project. They're looking at more portable homes. They're more open. We're working together on some of the projects.

Like I said, there's use in doing research for understanding how to build a home based on “strong like two“ that could be energy efficient and at the same time is based on community ownership. If you have these two together, it makes it a lot easier understanding what is a home and it makes the community feel more...because it's the ownership that's very important but at the same time it's about working together.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you, Francesco.

I have just a couple of questions, please. We're a wee bit over time.

On your point, Tony, where is CMHC on assisting with that kind of housing or do the rules and regulations prevent you from doing so? What's the story there?

[Anthony Rabesca]

I was working with the project but I got promoted. My partner was the architect. We were working together. He got promoted and now he works as a professor at a university in Alberta. We're working together.

The model that we put together, they're still using today. CMHC still uses the model and they're very aware of how the “strong like two” house can make a big difference for communities, especially in aboriginal small communities. The research done was based on what supported the elders and the youth.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you.

David, I have a couple of questions on the base-plus funding.

That doesn't apply to the health accord, does it? It just applies to the infrastructure. What areas does it apply to? We're in the same boat in Prince Edward Island. If you don't have that base funding, you're just are completely out of the picture. I understand that. If you don't have the base to establish those fundamental costs, then the per capita is so little you can't even get started.

[David Stewart]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

My understanding is, yes, it is being used on some of the infrastructure investments that have been announced recently.

You're right that on things like the CHT, the social fund, and even the territorial health fund, they're not always done on a base plus, it's more of a per capita kind of basis. Prince Edward Island is absolutely in the same boat as we are on that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

It's Nunavut, Yukon, Northwest Territories, and P.E.I., I think that are....

Okay, on the Taltson project, where is that? I'm looking on the map and I can't find it. Where is it located, and what is its potential?

[David Stewart]

The Taltson project is very near the town of Forth Smith. It's right near the N.W.T. border with Alberta and Saskatchewan. That's where the three of them come together, within a few hundred kilometres. When I say very near, it's in the northern context of very near, but it's down in the southeast corner of the N.W.T.

On the potential, the initial expansion that's envisioned is to go to 60 megawatts of electricity. The potential is there to go up to 200, with further development. We can see it as a long-term, run-of-river project that has lots of potential to provide power to southern Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Also it would fit in with the climate change initiative and so on.

When you were talking, I couldn't help but think where Quebec and Manitoba would be if they hadn't invested those monies many years ago in hydroelectric development.

[David Stewart]

Absolutely.

We've been talking with both the Government of Saskatchewan and the Government of Alberta, and I think part of their interest is because of the need to go to cleaner energy sources. That provides it, compared to coal-burning types of facilities.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Yes, I've been to the gold mines in Yellowknife, That was quite a few years ago.

With that, thank you all for your presentations. We appreciate your taking the time to come and to answer questions.

We'll suspend for five minutes and then go to the next panel. The next panel is now up to six, so we're going to be tight in questions.

The meeting is suspended.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

I call the meeting back to order.

Welcome to the witnesses. For those who did make a submission prior to the mid-August deadline, I thank you for doing that. It is on our iPads. The points made in those submissions will be considered as part of the pre-budget consultations, as well as the comments made today.

Just to give you a little perspective of the makeup of the finance committee, this is not the full committee. We travel with seven members rather than the full committee. I will ask members to introduce themselves so you know where they come from and why they might think about things from a different perspective.

I'm Wayne Easter. I'm the member of Parliament for the riding of Malpeque in Prince Edward Island. I have been up in this area probably three times before, once as solicitor general looking at security at the diamond mines and that kind of stuff, so I have some familiarity with the area.

We'll turn to Mr. McLeod, the sitting member in the area. He probably needs no introduction.

If you want to do a quick introduction, Michael, we'll go around the room and then go to presentations.