Finance Committee on Oct. 5th, 2017

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Thank you for the answer.

In regard to mining, I am fortunate enough to have two mines in my area. They are very important economically, but also for the employment they provide. I certainly can appreciate that there are opportunities, but they also require electricity. Obviously in British Columbia we have hydroelectricity, and we have benefited for many years from investments in the past where we've had cheaper power, which has allowed many of these projects to become viable.

In regard to development of those resources, you say you have a few hydroelectric projects. Where do they stand? How far along are you in identifying projects that could power such economic development?

[David Stewart]

In terms of electricity, certainly there are some opportunities to connect mining projects to the grid. It's often very expensive. With our existing diamond mines, for example, there was a proposal, which was fairly well developed, to take power from the Taltson system and move it up to our current diamond mines. By the time that proposal got fully developed and was moved along, the diamond mines had already put in generators, and much of their useful life was already being used. They had already made that investment.

I think the lesson we learned from that is we have to get in earlier. If it means putting in temporary power in the interim, providing that power to those mines, and then eventually trying to see if we can connect them to the hydro grid, it is a better way of going. As you would know with mines in your riding, you don't always know where they're going to be, so you have to plan both sides of that at the same time for a mine that gets into development, and make sure that we can provide the electricity for them.

It's certainly a feasible project, but we really have to have a long-term, stable customer to be able make it worthwhile to make that investment, whether it's through a partnership or other types of arrangements.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Both mines in my riding are significant taxpayers, not just provincially, but also to the communities that are nearby. Recently the province re-scoped it so that one of the communities, Princeton, would get greater funding. I certainly appreciate the impact you have on communities, and that takes me to Ms. Brown.

Ms. Brown, thank you again for coming today.

Speaking about Princeton, a wonderful little town, I've heard concerns in the Similkameen that the government, basically without any consultation, moved forward with the remuneration issue with one-third of municipal remuneration. What I'm hearing in British Columbia is that they've extended it to four years, so fewer people are stepping up—I'm not sure what it is here to serve on your local council—and there are concerns that the rural areas, which don't have a tax base and whatnot, are going to suffer, not just from people not standing for office because of the various challenges, but also that it's going to cost them more.

Can you maybe explain that a little bit more and what you'd recommend? Are you recommending that they maintain the exemption right across Canada?

[Sara Brown]

Yes, absolutely. I know this is a position that's been taken by most of the associations across the country, that this removal will create significant barriers to people participating in local government. Basically, they've enjoyed tax exemptions on one-third of their income without having to file expenses. It was just understood that this amount will be allowed for them, and it will have a very significant impact across the country in recruitment for municipal council.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Yes. I started in municipal council, and maybe that's a reason to suggest that we don't want more people getting into it. However, I do appreciate, particularly in rural and remote areas, that it makes it that much more difficult.

Last, I'd like to go to Ms. Caudron.

Thank you very much for your presentation. My wife actually worked at a friendship centre for a number of years, so I certainly know the love you have for your clients, but also the great challenges because the needs are constantly changing.

You talked about entrepreneurship and how helping people move into steady, stable employment is a good thing. Having housing is also important.

British Columbia offers a micro business program that helps people with fewer than five employees to specifically get to that next stage. Do you offer any of those services, or are you looking to do those kinds of partnerships?

[Shari Caudron]

It's interesting that you mention that. I actually was on a staycation in B.C. for 15 years, so I'm aware of many of the programs that are there. We have brought up the aboriginal BEST program. We haven't put it on yet, but we are working directly with them to set that up within our centres.

There are some services in the north with regard to entrepreneurship, but they're a bit challenged at best. That's why I like to spearhead within our organization to get our youth involved. We did a program on manufacturing and tourism recently, and in that particular program, they ended up creating their own jobs. This is for multi-barrier clients. We're dealing with addictions. We're dealing with disabilities. Every time I would travel, I would bring something back. They had these lanyards. They made a bunch of them, and GNWT started buying them. They made $7,000 within the first two months. We keep it beneath our wing, so they're working directly in our centre, but they have their own budget and their own accounts and wage. They learn the skills in order to manage their own business.

However, yes, we certainly would like to have an incubator within our centre to support small businesses.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Thank you for what you do.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

We'll wait until Francesco is back.

We usually do a round of introductions so you know where our folks are from across the country. Maybe we'll do that, and then go to Mr. Dusseault.

I'm from Prince Edward Island, from the riding of Malpeque. I have been a member of Parliament for a fairly long while.

You likely know Michael pretty well, but if he wants to say anything, he can go ahead.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Yes, I think everybody knows me. I've worked with most of you.

My name is Michael McLeod. I'm the representative on this committee for the Liberal government. I'm actually the newest member of this committee. I was appointed very recently, in September.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Hello, my name is Greg Fergus and I'm the member for the riding of Hull—Aylmer, which is located near Ottawa but on the Quebec side. I'm a member of the Liberal Party, and I joined the Standing Committee on Finance in January.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

I am Dan Albas from Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, British Columbia. I am very happy to be here in Yellowknife. I haven't been here before, and I appreciate everyone's presentations.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

I am Pat Kelly, the member of Parliament for Calgary Rocky Ridge. Likewise, I'm happy to be here, although this is my second visit to Yellowknife. My previous visit was also on parliamentary business. It's great to be back.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

Hello, my name is Pierre-Luc Dusseault. I'm the member for Sherbrooke, in southeastern Quebec. I belong to the NDP.

Mr. Chair, would you give me the opportunity to ask questions?

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Yes, go ahead. I think we've used all your time, Pierre.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

My first question deals with the Northwest Territories' hydroelectric potential. You mentioned potential hydroelectric dam projects. I'd like to know more about how far along these projects might be. What kind of support could the federal government be offering in order to tap into this hydroelectric potential and eventually even export some of that energy, cleaning up our energy sources in the process? As we all know, hydroelectricity is a very clean energy source.

[David Stewart]

Again, I just want to make sure that we welcome all the members to the Northwest Territories. We are always very happy when people visit us here, so thank you for doing that.

In terms of our hydroelectric projects, the Taltson project is probably the largest in terms of the potential to export. It is going to be quite an expensive project, and we think it has some real potential for the new Canada infrastructure bank. We're hoping to see some fairly good guidelines come out of that, which will give us some flexibility to see if we could advance that project through that type of an arrangement.

It also is a project that has considerable front-end work that needs to be done in terms of the planning and the environmental assessments. We think the federal government can have a role there.

The final one on the large projects that I would mention is that we have a federally imposed borrowing limit in the GNWT of $1.3 billion for long-term debt. We have had some success in recent years in being able to get that increased. We have the second highest credit rating from Moody's and have had that for 11 years, but if we're going to be able to partake in and advance some of these very large infrastructure projects, we're going to need to look at that issue. We need to make sure that our debt is affordable within our fiscal arrangements without being so restrictive that we have to pass up opportunities.

There are a number of other hydro projects out there. Some of them are large projects, but there are also mini projects. We have projects very close to small communities that aren't accessible by road and could do exactly what you said, replace electricity generation from oil-fired generators but also potentially heat. We think there is some role for that in some of the various infrastructure pots as well. We think there are lots of partnerships there, and there are a few of those throughout the N.W.T.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

Thank you.

The issue of borrowing limits is indeed important. It was Mr. McLeod, or maybe another member from the territories, that brought it up. Perhaps we will return to it later.

Ms. Brown, you spoke of climate change as a sizeable challenge. I think everyone can agree on that. You also spoke of opportunities. Can you elaborate further on these opportunities you speak of and on what the federal government could be doing to help you seize them?

[Sara Brown]

Thank you very much.

The most obvious way for that to be an opportunity is for appropriate funding to cope with it. That would mean stimulus to the economy as well. If we're dealing with the replacement of buildings and the replacement of infrastructure, that becomes a stimulus in itself, and I think there is a lot of opportunity there.

We do have some change happening, particularly in the southern N.W.T. as well as with respect to agriculture. That, combined with a lot of federal and territorial programs fostering agriculture, I think means that there are some great opportunities there as well.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

That's an interesting point. There could indeed be new opportunities in agriculture.

I didn't know much about Friendship Centres before. What is their funding structure?

You mentioned that your main challenges are funding and lack of resources. What's the main thing the federal government could do in support of your funding structure? What type of investment could it make?

[Shari Caudron]

Right now we receive core funding from INAC, which is currently being held up. An increase in that funding would be significant. My local centre receives $137,000 per year, which is not enough to cover the staff, infrastructure costs, or anything beyond that, so what we do is apply for additional funding from the federal government.

I thank you. The Soaring Eagle Friendship Centre received $1.276 million over a period of three years to do training to employment through the skills link program. We look to other sources to access it. The funds we receive from the GNWT are pretty much insignificant.

We do our best. We do fundraisers as well. We've had no increase in our funding since the 1980s, so we've stretched as much as we can. We've also received support from CanNor. My centre actually got renovations done.

The federal government does support us. We have received Health Canada funding, but again, this is not enough to address all the issues we address at the local level. We work on a one-on-one basis. At the end of the day, the way we look at it is that if we've helped one person, we've done our job, so...a significant increase and for the long term. To do training to employment is another aspect.

When you look at the seven pillars of the federal anti-poverty strategy of ESDC, we're dealing with all of those. We're dealing with health. We're dealing with housing. We're dealing with training to employment. It's not just one factor. We deal with it all, and on an individual basis.

I hope that provides some clarity.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

Yes, sure.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Sorry, we have to stop there. We'll go to Mr. Fergus.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Hello everyone. I would like to thank you all for hosting us in Yellowknife. I have to say this is my first time in the Northwest Territories. I knew, even before the plane had landed, that we would get the warmest of welcomes.

My question is for Mr. Stewart and Mr. Kalgutkar. It deals with affordable housing and housing in general.

This morning, I took the time to do a bit of jogging around Yellowknife. It's apparent that construction and infrastructure costs must be through the roof up here. Transporting building materials all the way here must be very expensive already, not to mention having to dig into solid rock because of the absence of loose ground.

As you have mentioned, I would imagine that our—

base-plus funding

—formula must be critical to the Government of the Northwest Territories. Could you tell us more on the subject so that it may appear on record?

[David Stewart]

Thank you for that, and I do have to give the federal government credit, because there are many programs that use a base-plus approach. What that essentially entails is a base level of funding for all jurisdictions for an initiative, and then allocating the remaining funding on more of a per capita basis. It obviously would result in more funds for large jurisdictions, but it ensures funding for the smaller jurisdictions. The territories, and some of the smaller Atlantic provinces feel the same way, often don't have enough to be able to implement programs in a way that has a large impact.

For us in the north, as you mentioned, the cost of delivering programs is often much different from what it is in southern Canada. Also, we're a very large territory, so the economies of scale that might be available in other places just aren't available in the north.

The idea behind base-plus funding is really to provide a base level of funding to every jurisdiction and then allocate the remaining amount. In terms of the value I quoted in my opening comments, with about 40% of the population you can imagine how much Ontario would get out of that kind of model, not that Ontario doesn't need funding but their rounding is more than our funding. With small adjustments by some of the large jurisdictions, it can make an enormous difference for the smaller jurisdictions.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

This brings us back to the subject that was broached by Ms. Caudron, Mr. Rabesca and Mr. Bird.

I started my career in the field of affordable and co-operative housing in the South. If we hope to address the myriad issues and concerns of young people and families in need, I know how important it is to tackle the issue of housing first. Everyone needs a place to live.

Could you explain what housing represents for groups, like yours, that offer a whole range of services to communities in the Northwest Territories