Evidence of meeting #13 for Finance in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rate.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Trevor McGowan  Senior Legislative Chief, Tax Legislation Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Miodrag Jovanovic  General Director, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

11:25 a.m.

General Director, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Miodrag Jovanovic

If you take into account the advantages individuals in the first tax bracket get, the net tax rate is very favourable. It is not high.

It is often in the second tax bracket that individuals and families begin to lose their advantages. At that point, the effective tax rates are higher. We made the decision to increase marginal tax rates to rebalance the system around the middle. Other measures were taken by the government to provide more assistance to people with lower incomes. It is a government policy.

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

I understand what you are saying. That is why I was excluding the 20% with the lowest incomes and the 20% with the highest incomes. You then have 60% of Canadians left.

If you want to start with the third bracket, and exclude the poorest 30% and the richest 30%, which leaves the 40% in the middle class, this would mean that absolutely no one who earns between $21,900 and $42,600 will have a tax reduction.

We are talking about the middle class and nine million taxpayers, but there will be 18 million taxpayers who will not benefit from any tax reduction. They will get nothing. That is why I asked the Parliamentary Budget Officer for the study. I wanted to make sure that we would understand the distribution if there were a change that would affect the first tax bracket.

According to the two definitions I gave you of the middle class, taxpayers would see some benefit. But in this case, you are increasing the taxation rate for about 1% of the population to give this back to 30% of the population, which leaves the other 70% with nothing.

Do you disagree with what I have just said?

11:30 a.m.

General Director, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Miodrag Jovanovic

I would like to close with this. The first two quintiles do not pay any income tax. If we are talking about a tax reduction, it is rather normal that...

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

I am already excluding them. I am not talking about them.

11:30 a.m.

General Director, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Miodrag Jovanovic

Moreover, the nine million people who will benefit from a tax reduction represent three quarters of those who are in the second bracket.

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

You have not refuted my figure of 18 million people who will not benefit.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

I am going to have to cut you off there, Guy.

Mr. Jovanovic, do you want to finish?

11:30 a.m.

General Director, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Miodrag Jovanovic

I would simply like to confirm that in the first tax bracket, there are 8.7 million people.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you, both.

Mr. Sorbara, go ahead.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Francesco Sorbara Liberal Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON

Good morning, everyone. I feel reminiscent this morning. I think I'm back in graduate school, talking about fiscal multipliers and models from the University of Toronto, so I'm having a bit of a sense of déjà vu this morning.

On a big-picture basis, I think it's great when we put more money back into the hands of hard-working Canadians. I think that's where taxpayers' money needs to be, back to Canadian workers.

We have cut taxes for nine million Canadians, and they will benefit this year. Nine million Canadians will have lower taxes and more disposable income. It behooves us to emphasize that the average person will receive $330, and on a per couple basis, $540. On top of that, we are introducing this wonderful Canada child benefit, which will be transformational for literally millions of families and benefit nine out of 10 families in Canada. I think it will result in $23 billion in payments that will come from the CCB in fiscal 2016-17.

First of all, I have a couple of comments. The fiscal multipliers are open to a lot of interpretation—you may use one number, or you may use another number. There are lots of estimates. There is also a thing called the “animal spirits”, from my understanding. Overall, consumer psychology is that if you put more money in the hands of consumers, they tend to feel better and they tend to go out and spend. That's what I would assume.

I would just like to say that, in general, it is better to have lower income tax rates than higher income tax rates. Would we not agree on that?

11:30 a.m.

An hon. member

The Conservative Party sure agrees.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Francesco Sorbara Liberal Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON

In general, it would be better to have a progressive taxation system as well.

May I ask, what is the actual inflection point for someone making over $200,000 where they will actually pay higher income taxes?

11:30 a.m.

General Director, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Miodrag Jovanovic

At $217,000.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Francesco Sorbara Liberal Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON

Someone making over $217,000, after incorporating the 7% income tax cut on that second tax bracket, will actually face a higher income tax level at $217,000, which I understand is actually indexed to inflation, so next year it'll probably be at $220,000, give or take what the number comes out at. Someone making more than $220,000 in this great country of Canada will pay a little more in income tax. But $220,000 is a substantial amount of money for most Canadians. Is that not correct?

11:35 a.m.

General Director, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Francesco Sorbara Liberal Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON

In terms of the number of filers above $220,000, what percentage would that be?

11:35 a.m.

General Director, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Miodrag Jovanovic

It's a bit more than 1%, roughly 1%.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Francesco Sorbara Liberal Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON

So 1% of filers, okay. I just wanted to get that out there.

In terms of the TFSA, many Canadians use that as a saving vehicle. Let's be frank, most people who were using or benefited from the $10,000 limit were upper-income folks, or folks who had a substantial amount of savings. A young family starting out just wouldn't have that disposable income. I think your profile, or the profile that I've come to understand in terms of who was putting away money for TFSA savings, fits that profile. Is that not a fair statement?

11:35 a.m.

General Director, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

I think, Francesco, they don't want to answer from the political side of the equation. They will answer from the policy side of the equation.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Francesco Sorbara Liberal Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON

Okay. For the individuals saving in a TFSA account, can we look at their income profile, please?

11:35 a.m.

General Director, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Miodrag Jovanovic

Yes. The participation rate, maybe that's one way to look at that—

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Francesco Sorbara Liberal Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON

Sure, that would be fine.

11:35 a.m.

General Director, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Miodrag Jovanovic

The participation rate of individuals, for instance, earning between $20,000 and $40,000 is about 40%, so it's a good participation rate in that level of income. The participation rate does increase somewhat with income, and it reaches about 67% for those earning more than $250,000—

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Francesco Sorbara Liberal Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON

For those who are able to maximize the actual limit at that $10,000 level, where it was, and we returned it to the $5,500 level?