Evidence of meeting #134 for Finance in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cases.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Trevor Bhupsingh  Director General, Law Enforcement and Border Strategies Directorate, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Cherie Henderson  Director General, Policy and Foreign Relations, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Commissioner Joanne Crampton  Assistant Commissioner, Federal Policing Criminal Operations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Sébastien Aubertin-Giguère  Director General, Traveller Program Directorate, Canada Border Services Agency
John Davies  Director General, National Security Policy, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Paul Saint-Denis  Senior Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
George Dolhai  Deputy Director of Public Prosecutions, Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you all for being here today.

My first question is for the CSIS and RCMP officials. It has to do with data collection.

Again today, we are hearing about how difficult it is to track beneficial owners, which are often corporations. In recent meetings, we have also heard about the problem posed by complacency laws in tax haven jurisdictions.

When CSIS or the RCMP wants information about people who may be laundering money or financing terrorism, to what extent are tax havens problematic? We are talking about countries that uphold banking secrecy, that are complacent and somewhat complicit in these crimes. How problematic are complacency laws in other jurisdictions for your investigations?

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Who wants to respond?

4:10 p.m.

A/Commr Joanne Crampton

I can answer, Mr. Chair.

On tax havens, I would refer to the Canada Revenue Agency. Unfortunately, I'm not able to answer that part.

When we're looking at beneficial ownership, it's an issue and a concern of ours.

There was a recent article that came out with regard to real estate, actually. It talked about the difficulty of private companies and numbered companies. When we're not able to see who exactly owns the company, it's an issue. It creates difficulties for investigations and I'm sure with my partners, as well.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

We'll have the CRA here on Wednesday, Pierre.

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

So it's not a problem your investigators come up against in their day-to-day activities. Clearly, in Canada, despite certain barriers, it's still easier to gain access to information about companies and their beneficial owners. Is the use of certain structures in other jurisdictions, by fraudsters, a barrier for you in your investigations? Is it a problem you deal with on a daily basis?

4:10 p.m.

A/Commr Joanne Crampton

It certainly is within Canada. Absolutely. It is an issue when we're not able to determine who the exact owner is. It hinders investigations.

When going from province to province, there is a difference, too. It's not standardized right across the country. That would be another issue of concern.

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

Thank you.

I'd like to pick up on a subject that was raised earlier, crypto currencies.

The CBSA said that the money crossing the border, in a variety of ways, was cash, real money. Conventional electronic funds, international bank transfers and such, are easier to track because financial institutions automatically send FINTRAC information on those kinds of transactions. In the case of crypto currencies, who monitors transfers exceeding $10,000? The money is somewhat in limbo and can't be traced. Does one of your organizations look into crypto currency transfers outside the country?

4:15 p.m.

Director General, Traveller Program Directorate, Canada Border Services Agency

Sébastien Aubertin-Giguère

Under the act, crypto currency is not considered a monetary instrument. Our responsibility does not include the cross-border movement of crypto currency.

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

Is one of the other organizations here today responsible for that?

4:15 p.m.

A/Commr Joanne Crampton

We have investigations ongoing that involve cryptocurrency. It's a perennial issue and something that's very difficult to investigate. It's very complex. It's used in all sorts of transactions and is becoming more and more common. Absolutely. It's not something that we're tracking predominantly, but it is part of our investigations.

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

It's not something anyone seems to be paying attention to. We are not talking about cash. Crypto currency transactions don't have to be handled by a financial institution, so transfers happen outside the conventional system.

I'd like to use my remaining time to discuss prosecutions with the RCMP official. As the committee chair briefly pointed out, provincial and municipal authorities are the ones enforcing the act. In some cases, they prosecute criminals for a variety of Criminal Code offences, which may include money laundering.

When money laundering is involved, do provincial and municipal authorities pass that information along to the RCMP? Do they share that information with you, since you are the ones responsible for handling those types of offences?

4:15 p.m.

A/Commr Joanne Crampton

Yes, we have a great working relationship right across the country. We have various municipal agencies. We have federal policing positions that investigate financial crime right across the country, and we work in collaboration with not only our federal partners but also our municipal and provincial policing partners. In certain cases we would provide expertise, but in other cases we may step in and assist with the file. If they would like to transfer a file over, we would certainly investigate it either at a provincial level or a federal level.

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

You have strong co-operation, then, and I think that's one of the points the chair made.

I see my time is up.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Yes. That will come up at another time, I'm sure, when we talk to provincial attorneys general.

Mr. Fergus.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you all for being here. Feel free to answer my questions in the language of your choice.

As witnesses, you are all here of good faith. You may not know this, but the members around the table have finally realized that something needs to be done about this. We aren't here just to approve a report without discussing it. We are here to get something done and fix the problem on our hands. With that in mind, I'd like you to speak honestly and set aside the habit people tend to have here, in Ottawa, of sticking to their own area of expertise and refusing to comment on something they do not know inside and out.

I'd like to commend you, Ms. Crampton, for pointing out that serious challenges stand in the way of fixing the problem.

You said in your opening statement that there are some challenges, and that one of them is sharing vital money laundering information while respecting the privacy rights of Canadians.

If you could imagine that we didn't have privacy concerns, what type of information would you be looking for? Could you respond quickly?

February 26th, 2018 / 4:20 p.m.

A/Commr Joanne Crampton

We would be looking for information with regard to transactions, with more transparency to be able to find the information we need to investigate. That would include banking information, beneficial ownership, and who is moving the money, so to speak, if we were to have no laws or legislation—all of those investigative pieces that we would look for.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

Are there international examples that you can turn to that we could look toward?

4:20 p.m.

A/Commr Joanne Crampton

I was just thinking about that as I was answering. At an international level, certainly the MLAT process is very cumbersome. In terms of time and turnaround, it sometimes isn't efficient for the information we need, especially when we're looking at electronic data that can disappear quickly. That's across several types of investigations, not just money laundering and terrorism financing. Also in terms of receiving information that's useful in our court system here, so recognizing what we need in the system here....

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

I guess what I'm trying to say is let's just put away the court system, because you're not the first witness to raise this issue. I'm just trying to imagine what it would look like if we didn't have the charter implications to consider.

4:20 p.m.

A/Commr Joanne Crampton

Okay.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

Is there particular information or are there particular jurisdictions abroad that we can turn to, to try to approximate as closely as possible, that would make your life a lot easier?

4:20 p.m.

A/Commr Joanne Crampton

I would have to check, but I believe the U.K. is an example. Let me just double-check my notes and I can get back to you on that.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

I'm sorry to be focusing on you, Assistant Commissioner, but you also made reference in your answer to the lack of transparency around beneficial ownership information. That gets back, and might also be related a bit, to the exclusion of lawyers and public notaries in Quebec. Again, what type of information or what other jurisdiction can we point to? If it's the U.K., that's great. Or is there another jurisdiction that avoids these problems, where we're able to get that type of information while still respecting that client-solicitor privilege relationship that lawyers and public notaries may have?

4:20 p.m.

A/Commr Joanne Crampton

My understanding is that it's the United States and the U.K. for beneficial ownership.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

All right.

Maybe I should just move on to CSIS.

Ms. Henderson, thank you very much. If there were any information, informal or formal, that you could have that could be helpful for you to be able to have more interaction with FINTRAC, could you please take this opportunity to tell us what it is? Go far afield.