Evidence of meeting #134 for Finance in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cases.
A video is available from Parliament.
5:50 p.m.
Senior Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
Are we talking about prosecution agencies, or prosecution and law enforcement?
5:50 p.m.
Liberal
Francesco Sorbara Liberal Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON
Prosecution and law enforcement, the collection of information, and the sharing of information where appropriate.
5:50 p.m.
Deputy Director of Public Prosecutions, Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions
When we provide advice to the police, our goal is to make sure that when that sharing happens, it happens in a manner that is going to lead to admissible evidence. Our concern is with respect to the statutory framework being relied on, and what the charter implications are for privacy.
In my experience, people are very co-operative with respect to the common goal. I can certainly speak in terms of prosecutions services. We have a meeting twice a year of all the heads of prosecution. I can tell you, it's tremendous. I'm sure it's the same with the police in some of the police meetings I've attended among the various police forces. People park the politics at the door, and they just get down to brass tacks.
5:50 p.m.
Liberal
Francesco Sorbara Liberal Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON
Is there any way that we as a committee can get a list of cases in which there was a conviction for money laundering, or cases that would help us better understand the process over the last three to five years?
5:50 p.m.
Deputy Director of Public Prosecutions, Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions
If you give me an indication, Mr. Chair, of what types of statistics are sought, I can tell you, for example, that in the last five years, we've had 163 money laundering proceeds of crime prosecutions. Those are prosecutions that have drugs in them as well. In terms of standalone money laundering and proceeds of crime, the classic, we've had 46 during that five-year period.
In Canada, the structure that exists is one where one doesn't have to even have a charge of proceeds of crime or money laundering with respect to the money that is generated through drugs, for example. The conviction itself, on the drugs, will be the avenue for purposes of forfeiture. On those we have thousands.
I can indicate, for example, that with regard to proceeds of crime cases during the last five years, we've had a total of over 20,000 files. Of those, there have been findings of guilt for the proceeds of crime or drugs, because that can also lead to the forfeiture, in 11,000 on those files. That accounts for approximately 63%.
If one were to take out of the picture those cases where there was insufficient evidence or a determination was made that it was not going to proceed to a prosecution in terms of a withdrawl or stay, then the convictions are approximately 84% on average during those five years.
It's a complex mix in Canada, because of the arrangement with respect to the substantive offence. I focus on drugs, because drugs are a significant part of our area. I'm sure if the provincial attorneys general were speaking to you, they would talk about other matters, for example, like ordinary frauds.
5:50 p.m.
Liberal
Francesco Sorbara Liberal Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON
I'm sure I'll have to go back and read over the blues to get the numbers, but if we could get some of that data from you that would be great, Chair.
5:50 p.m.
Liberal
Francesco Sorbara Liberal Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON
One last follow-up, and I don't know if you can answer this. I forget the name of the outgoing RCMP assistant commissioner, but it was in the paper a while ago about the focus within the RCMP, where resources were being put. The comment was made that a lot of the focus was on terrorism, a lot of resources were put there, and a lot less of the focus was on organized crime and obviously their relationship to money laundering; and resources were shifted from one area to the other area. They referenced the Hells Angels organization, which, from my understanding, has reappeared in Ontario quite vigorously. Is this review something where the tools are in place to combat that, if in fact resources were redirected, whether it was under the prior government's watch or our government's watch, in that vein?
5:55 p.m.
Senior Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
Mr. Chairman, the allocation of resources by the RCMP is of course strictly the RCMP's concern. I believe it is correct that they have over the past few years focused more on national security and anti-terrorism initiatives or efforts and may have shifted some of their resources from criminal investigations to those areas. But if you want additional information, I'm sure you'll be able to ask the RCMP for that kind of information.
5:55 p.m.
Conservative
Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB
Thank you.
My questions were in the same vein and similar to what Mr. Sorbara had asked, so maybe I'll just ask for clarity on this.
The conviction rate on money laundering you said was 84%. What did that refer to? You also mentioned the number of 163 present cases. What was that 84%? What did that represent?
5:55 p.m.
Deputy Director of Public Prosecutions, Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions
That 84% represented the cases that had either proceeds of crime or money laundering in them, and other offences as well—drugs. That represents that. When you take out of that figure the withdrawals and stays by the crown, putting aside judicial stays, because those are a different concern or matter, that's what that referred to. If you left them in, it's approximately 63%. That's for that.
With respect to the stand-alone—I didn't give this figure—money laundering and proceeds of crime cases, there were 46 of those. If you take out the stays or withdrawals, the conviction rate is 78%. Again, each case is on its own evidence. As the crown, our responsibility is to fairly and vigorously put forward the evidence that we have before the courts and to get a determination on the merits. In that context that's what occurred. The 46 are stand alone. The ones that are money laundering and proceeds of crime, with some other charges, those are the 163.
I can provide those statistics for the committee so that you're not having to write them down.
5:55 p.m.
Deputy Director of Public Prosecutions, Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions
I'm certainly happy to answer any questions about them, too.
5:55 p.m.
Conservative
Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB
Okay.
This may be difficult for you to answer because you only make decisions on cases that you reasonably believe you can win and that are in the public interest. How widespread is the crime of money laundering where winning cases cannot be put together, and thus justice cannot be done in these cases? We've been told by the last panel of the complexity and the difficulty and a litany of challenges that are faced when putting together a case that can go from investigation to a charge laid to a conviction. How are we doing in the broader realm of actually punishing this crime?
6 p.m.
Deputy Director of Public Prosecutions, Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions
Unfortunately, I can't really comment on what is not in a position to be presented for purposes of a charge. Our folks are regularly consulted by the police on a whole host of investigations in this area, as in other areas where decisions are made, and they are in the best position to make those decisions as to how much further they are going to be able to get in an investigation. I'm not able to comment on that part of it.
6 p.m.
Conservative
Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB
Okay.
Can you tell the committee anything about your provincial counterparts and about how the prosecution of money laundering is handled at the provincial level?
In my past business life, we repeatedly were made aware of complaints from prosecution about lack of resources to be able to prosecute fraud, and money laundering is a type of fraud. How are we doing at the provincial level, in your opinion?
6 p.m.
Deputy Director of Public Prosecutions, Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions
Again, I'm not able to comment on the provincial statistics because I do not have the provincial statistics. What I can indicate is that in the provinces, there are two different regimes. There is the Criminal Code regime. I think virtually every province has a civil forfeiture regime as well, which we don't have federally.
6 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter
I'm coming to Greg, but are there any case studies of an actual case that the committee could see on money laundering? If we were to go to the case record, we would have a volume of stuff. Are there any case studies of an actual case on money laundering that could be made available to us?
In order to get our heads around all the issues relating to a case in court—and actually, it would include investigators' investigation or some of the things on the record—is there any such thing available?
6 p.m.
Deputy Director of Public Prosecutions, Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions
I mentioned the Chun case. I think that perhaps the reasons for judgment in that case might be of assistance to the committee, because with respect to when you get to a closed case and there's a determination made by the judge, you have to have reasons. The judge synthesizes all the evidence and indicates, essentially, what had to come together to have that finding by the court. That might be a case that I could supply that might be of assistance.
6 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter
You can supply that to us, and people at their leisure could have a look at it. I think it would kind of get our heads around it.
6 p.m.
Deputy Director of Public Prosecutions, Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions
Sure.