Finance Committee on May 1st, 2018

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

That's not true. Your officials briefed us, after the bill was first introduced, that the federal government would have the ability to either direct the funds back to the population, going around the provincial governments, or give it to the province. Now you've said something completely different. You've said that the money will have to go to the provincial government.

[John Moffet]

Sorry, that's not what I said.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Well, actually, it is what you said.

[John Moffet]

I was the one who briefed you. I just made the statement that the bill requires the money to go back to the jurisdiction of origin—not to the government; to the jurisdiction of origin.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Okay, good—

[John Moffet]

The bill authorizes the government to return the money to the government or in other ways.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

I think there's an easy way to get to the answer, then. How much would the federal government have to return to the average Canadian household to compensate for the full cost of the carbon tax?

[John Moffet]

I don't have that number available. I can tell you, though, that—

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Has it been calculated?

[John Moffet]

No.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

You're telling me that Finance Canada has not calculated what the original cost of the tax at $50 a tonne would be?

[John Moffet]

I can't speak for Finance Canada.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Has any department done that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Does anybody else want to take a stab at this?

Mr. Poilievre, we can switch the questioning around and come back to you. Whenever you want to take a break, we'll go to somebody else and we'll come back to you.

Anybody else can answer this question, from Finance or Environment.

Mr. Coulombe.

[Gervais Coulombe, Director, Sales Tax Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance]

In respect of the study that was released yesterday, I would like to say that the expertise in environmental matters and modelling capacity with respect to GHG emissions rests with Environment and Climate Change Canada. As a result, they have been the lead department in developing the economic impact estimates related to the current carbon pricing system.

Of course, that said, given the nature of this policy, Finance officials have been working closely with colleagues at Environment and Climate Change Canada. We invite the committee to have a look at the study that was released yesterday. We hope it will help you in reviewing the proposed—

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

According to that study, how much would the carbon tax, when fully implemented, cost the average Canadian household?

[John Moffet]

The study does not provide that calculation.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

I have here documents from Finance Canada. It's a memo that says, “The memo focuses on the potential impact of a carbon price on households' consumption expenditures across the income distribution. Key findings are”—and the rest is blacked out. I know that Finance Canada is now under investigation by the Information Commissioner because of its failure to release this information, which obviously does need to be released in the public interest. The table that is blacked out would show how much families of various income levels would pay depending on the price of carbon.

You have this information. Can someone up there tell us what the cost of the carbon tax will be to the average Canadian family?

[John Moffet]

I can tell you that memo you are reading was not about this bill.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Of course not, but it apparently was about the cost of a carbon tax to families. This memo, furthermore, has another table wherein scenarios are laid out that are based on different levels of cost per tonne of carbon, so you have calculated how much a carbon tax would cost a given family, depending on the price of the carbon tax.

Can you please tell us what that cost is for an average family?

[John Moffet]

I'm afraid we can't tell you that at this time.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Why?

[John Moffet]

I'm afraid I'm going to repeat myself, and I'll elaborate a bit. The impacts depend, first of all, on the direct impact of the carbon charge on commodities that the household purchases, such as gasoline.

Second, the impact also depends on the cost of goods that are produced by large industries that will not be subject to a carbon charge, but will be subject to the output-based pricing system that will relieve those industries of a significant portion of the carbon charge on their emissions. It will charge them on the margin of their emissions. While we have laid out the authorities for that system in the bill and have published a number of papers proposing an overall approach to that system, we're in the middle of consultations to develop the actual standards that will be the heart of the output-based pricing system. They will actually determine the impact on the price of commodities and goods made by those industries. We don't know the details of that yet.

Third, again, the impact depends very significantly on the way that revenues are returned. We know that in other jurisdictions, in jurisdictions that have pricing, in some cases household costs are completely covered. Alberta estimates a direct impact on households ranging from about $280 to $500, and they've committed to returning all of those direct costs to about 60% of households in Alberta, so it's tailored to low-income versus high-income—

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Again, I'm asking about the federal price. We are here today to discuss Bill C-74, which is federal legislation to impose a federal carbon tax in provinces that don't have their own.

You claim that the impact will depend on how the revenues are used. We as parliamentarians cannot judge whether average Canadian families are made whole by any expenditure of those revenues unless we know the original cost those households must pay.

It's a simple question. Have any departmental officials calculated how much Canadian families of various income levels will pay as a result of the original carbon tax, if imposed at a federal level, as this bill prescribes? Yes or no?

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

I don't think Mr. Moffet is in a position to give a yes or no answer, Mr. Poilievre.