Finance Committee on May 8th, 2018

[Pierre Fogal]

No, I don't believe so. First, there's quite a disparity in location. Cambridge Bay is at approximately 69° north; Pearl is at 80° north. That separation is equivalent to the distance from Toronto to Memphis. You wouldn't tell me that the atmosphere is the same over the two of those.

Furthermore, at this point CHARS is not doing any atmospheric work. They have, as far as I know, none in their list of science that they will be doing. There's no overlap between the two on the science front.

In the Canadian Network of Northern Research Operators, here are something like 77 different research locations across the Arctic. The Canadian Arctic is a very large place, and no one station is going to take up the work of all the others.

No, I don't believe so, at all.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

CHARS is not doing the same research, but they're not using the same type of instruments as your organization, PEARL, does.

[Pierre Fogal]

No. We have a very advanced group of instruments. In fact, in the Arctic we use the same lab quality instruments that the top research labs in atmospheric science around the world use. We're as close to the cutting edge as we can be on that. I don't think CHARS is going to have any of those.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

What does it mean if there is an end to the funding for your organization? What will it mean to science and to information for everybody else?

[Pierre Fogal]

We're really the only lab outfitted the way we are that far north in the world. There are a couple of labs that are further north, one of them in Alert, but really there's nothing else in the world that does the level of work that we do.

We lose sight of what's happening inside the polar vortex, for example, which visits the area over northern Ellesmere Island quite frequently. We lose sight of what happens in the depths of polar night. Eureka, being as far north as it is, means that we are without sunlight from October 20 to February 20, and there are very few stations that measure through the polar night, so all of those mechanisms would then not be studied by very many people, if anyone.

We are fairly unique in the things that we do. We also provide a very good location for satellite validation, so all of the instruments that are on satellites that look down at the atmosphere are compared to ground instruments fairly often. Eureka has a lot of satellites overpassing our instruments, which makes for a good comparison.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Thank you.

My next question is for the Law Society of Ontario, and John Callaghan.

I had to smile when you said that most people here have never or don't know anybody who has committed a criminal offence.

[John Callaghan]

Committed.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

I probably know 50% of the people in my riding who are in jail, and probably 80% of those are indigenous, so maybe I'm the exception to the rule.

I was very curious. You talked about the research, and you talked about the system being very complex and confusing. I hear that from the family organizations in my riding, in terms of the backlog and the challenges of going through the system. They talk about having somebody to try to steer them through, having a guide to help them move through the system. They're in stressful situations to start with, and then the system is foreign to them, especially for some of the indigenous people who live in small communities. They're not used to the court system. They're scared of the police. They're scared of a lot of the people who are working in the system, and there's not a lot of support.

Would you recommend or would you say that we should be looking at having somebody who could help them manoeuvre through the civil courts and family courts?

[John Callaghan]

Undoubtedly. That's one thing the unified family court is trying to do. It's trying to have staff members who can help guide them through and hold information sessions. That's so important.

It's so foreign, not just to the indigenous population but to everybody, to go to a court. A court's not where people want to end up. It's a very stressful time. The idea of the unified family court is that we would get specialized clerks and people who are doing just that kind of work, who can explain how to fill out the forms. Still, there's a lot of work to be done.

The procedure in courts can be complex. Professor Bala mentioned streamlining our rules of civil procedure, those court rules that are designed by lawyers for lawyers. Now we have to design those for people who aren't lawyers so that they can have access. Part of it is whether, and in some instances how, we can resolve these, short of having a litigious process. Indigenous communities have a lot to offer on that kind of idea, everything from custom adoption to—

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

That leads me to my next question. There are a lot of challenges when it comes to indigenous traditions, indigenous customs. With regard to custom adoption, for example, I'm starting to see more and more instances where the court stumbles on dealing with indigenous issues. Do you think there should be a mechanism to improve the situation? If there is, what kinds of recommendations would you...?

[John Callaghan]

You won't believe this, but in 1986 I clerked at a court in the Northwest Territories and wrote a paper on custom adoption. For those who don't know what that is, it is the indigenous way of dealing with the adoption of children outside of the formalized process of the courts. Judge Sissons in the north, who was the first judge in the north—he was a white man's judge, if I can put it that way—recognized custom adoption. They've done it for years. I can't tell what the state of play is. I often get calls from the Northwest Territories about it.

I can't tell you all the roles that customs play, but there are other ways to do things, and thought has to be given to those ways. As you know, the idea of custom adoption is one area where they stepped outside the system because the system couldn't address the way people in the north dealt with adoptions, yet it was wholly in the interests of the child, wholly met the interests of the child. Forms weren't filled out, etc.

There's a lot to be learned. I can't tell you what lessons we should be taking out of that, but it's worth examining.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

It's something we should look at.

[John Callaghan]

Yes.

Professor Bala has his hand up.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Okay. You'll have to be fairly short, Professor Bala, because the bells are going to ring in about 30 seconds, and we have one more question.

[Prof. Nicholas Bala]

I think the issue of cultural competency of lawyers and judges is a very important one. We have a very plural and complex society. The complexities of society on the financial side, the economic side, the family side with regard to family relations, and the child's side are reflected in the family justice system. It needs resources to be able to resolve disputes, primarily outside of the trial process. We are doing and need to do more to move people through into non-adversarial dispute resolution.

Unified family courts have an important role in that. The judges we have, who are experienced specialists, really focus on trying to help people settle. Also, as Mr. Callaghan said, we need mediators. We need parenting educators. We need court workers around the justice system who can help resolve cases outside the courts as well as inside the courts.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you.

It should be noted that Mr. McLeod's riding is Northwest Territories.

Mr. Dusseault.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

Thank you.

I'm going to put a brief question to Mr. Braid. I am happy to see you here again as a witness.

Something in Bill C-74 concerned me when I read it. It says:

permit life companies, fraternal benefit societies and insurance holding companies to make long-term investments in permitted infrastructure entities to obtain predictable returns under the Insurance Companies Act

I was wondering if you had anything to say on this particular clause of the bill.

[Peter Braid]

This particular provision of the budget implementation act doesn't directly impact the broker channel.

That said, it's difficult for me to answer without putting on my previous hat as parliamentary secretary for infrastructure. I know that insurance companies and the insurance sector would welcome this change. They wish to invest in infrastructure projects here in this country, and that helps to contribute to the strength and the stability of the insurance sector.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

From a client perspective, do insurance companies getting into investment worry you? It's not always profitable, in some instances.

[Peter Braid]

It does not directly worry me, and it would not worry insurance brokers.

Insurance brokers are focused on serving their clients. They place business with their clients from a range of insurance companies. Insurance companies as they grow, I believe, would be looking for places to invest their capital. I suspect that OSFI would continue to look very closely at the capital requirements of insurance companies.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

With that, I'd like to thank all of the witnesses for their presentations this afternoon and for appearing before the committee.

For the committee's interest, we will reconvene tonight at 6:30 in 253 Centre Block.

I thank the committee for their endurance today.

Thank you as well to the people here by video conference.

The meeting is adjourned.