Evidence of meeting #17 for Finance in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was kpmg.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Gregory Wiebe  Partner, KPMG
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Suzie Cadieux

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

I call the meeting to order. We'll ask the cameras to leave.

This morning, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) we are dealing with a study of Canada Revenue Agency's efforts to combat tax avoidance and evasion.

The witness before us is this morning is Gregory Wiebe who is a partner with KPMG. Welcome, Mr. Wiebe.

I understand you have legal counsel with you. He's certainly welcome to sit at the table. You are the witness, but he is welcome to advise you at any time he so decides. I understand you're not before the committee every day. This is a new experience.

You have some notes you handed out to the committee. Welcome and the floor is yours.

11 a.m.

Gregory Wiebe Partner, KPMG

Good morning, Mr. Chair. Thank you very much for the invitation to appear before this committee.

I've been with KPMG Canada for over 30 years and recently completed a term as KPMG international global head of tax. Before that, I was managing partner of KPMG Canada's tax practice and before that led our tax practices in Vancouver, Calgary, and in my home town Winnipeg.

We welcome this opportunity to help bring clarity and understanding to a number of issues that are important to us as Canadians and particularly the accounting profession, including our firm KPMG.

KPMG is an active member of CPA Canada, the body that sets and enforces the standards for more than 200,000 accountants in Canada. Every day, accountants across the country help their clients with all sorts of financial issues including helping them comply with the myriad of complex tax rules. Our firm has been serving Canadians for close to 150 years. Over those years, we have continually evolved our practices to meet the changing needs and expectations of our clients and society as a whole, a fact which is critical to this discussion.

Tax planning is an acceptable part of our tax system. As the Supreme Court of Canada explained in 2013:

Every taxpayer is entitled to order his or her affairs so that the tax payable is less than it otherwise would be. Taxpayers often engage in tax planning to achieve that result.

With that in mind, the Isle of Man tax plan, which has been subject of much discussion and media attention in recent months, was created in 1999 and hasn't been implemented for close to 10 years. To understand the facts around this particular plan, we need to try to put ourselves back in that environment 17 years ago. Simply put, we can't take a 2016 lens to look at a 1999 issue.

In the late 1990s, the approach to tax planning in our profession, and society as a whole, was different that it is today both in Canada and around the world. The fact is the late 1990s was a time when non-resident trusts were permitted under Canadian law as a matter of government policy.

In fact, they were encouraged by the federal government as a way for immigrants with financial means to come to Canada while keeping some of their funds abroad. It was in this environment in 1999 that this tax plan was created.

As is the case with all our tax plans, it fully complied with all applicable tax laws. We conducted extensive internal and external due diligence including going so far as to obtain independent legal opinions from leading tax experts both in Canada and in the Isle of Man. With this diligence in hand, we implemented this plan 16 times, of which 13 are known to the tax authorities. We haven't used one of these plans in almost a decade.

If we now roll the conversation forward to 2016, the world has changed for every business, including the accounting profession. We, too, have modified our business practices to meet the expectations of our people, our clients, and our communities.

For example, KPMG strongly supports and was proud to have been involved in the OECD-G20 base erosion and profit shifting initiative designed to allow jurisdictions to work together to lay the foundations of a modern international tax framework.

Further, we ceased offering the tax plan to clients many years ago because both our tax practice and the national and global context changed regarding acceptable tax planning.

We have done more.

By 2006, any significant tax plan required a review by independent partner committees regarding the general anti-avoidance rule, transactional tax matters, risk and reputation, and other areas deemed appropriate by our professional standards.

In 2009, we developed and deployed a global tax code of conduct, a document that sets forth the commitments we make every day to our people, our clients, the tax authorities, and our communities. It spells out our responsibilities as individuals and as leaders, and requires us to act as role models promoting ethical behaviour and ensuring that our actions serve to reflect our values.

Like every business, we've changed dramatically since 1999. One area where we have not changed, however, is the importance that we place on client confidentiality.

Client confidentiality is not just a KPMG issue, it is a cornerstone of the accounting profession. We have a legal and professional obligation to keep client information confidential.

As all of you can appreciate, if Canadians could not trust their accountants to keep their private business affairs private, there would be no accounting advice.

Client confidentiality is a key issue at stake in this debate. In 2013, the CRA applied to the Federal Court to require us to disclose the names of all of our clients who used this tax plan.

We opposed that order on principled legal grounds because of the precedent it sets around client confidentiality and the impact that precedent would have on our entire profession.

The existence of this ongoing litigation has resulted in us being limited in what we can and cannot discuss publicly, which in turn has led to an unfortunate imbalance in the depiction of our firm in the media. As inconvenient as it is for us, the principle is too important to the profession to forgo.

I'd like to conclude my remarks by talking about our team. KPMG Canada employs 6,400 employees in 40 offices from Victoria to St. John's. Globally, the KPMG network employs 175,000 people in 155 countries.

Our people in Canada and around the world come to work every day to help our clients with the business challenges they face. We help small business owners meet their payroll. We help Canadian businesses grow, expand and be successful internationally. We help protect Canadian investors through our audit services. We help Canadians meet their tax obligations and, finally, we help our communities prosper by volunteering our time and expertise.

Our people do all of this while living by the values of our organization. One value stands out above the rest. Above all, we act with integrity, including most importantly, acting within the law.

What is being portrayed in the media is not who we are. It is not what we stand for. We are incredibly proud of our team and the difference each of them make to each other, our clients, and their communities every day.

Each member of our team is committed to and supportive of the continued evolution of our world to a place where there's more trust in the role of government, the role of the accounting profession, and confidence by society in the fairness of the tax system both in Canada and globally.

We appreciate this opportunity to provide context and contribute to the ongoing discussion.

Thank you.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you very much, Mr. Wiebe. Thank you for providing your speaking notes in both official languages, so that committee members have the benefit of them.

Starting the first round of questioning for seven minutes, given the time frame we have until 12:30, we can get everyone in for one series of questions.

Ms. O'Connell.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Thank you for attending today.

I'll get right to my questions because I have several and, hopefully, I can get through them all.

You mentioned in your testimony that this Isle of Man tax plan had been used 16 times and that the CRA was aware of 13.

Why have you not provided the names of the other three involved to CRA?

11:10 a.m.

Partner, KPMG

Gregory Wiebe

That's exactly the point of the court case that is before the Federal Court. It is our view that it's our responsibility to keep our client affairs private. We take that responsibility very seriously. It's a responsibility from a KPMG perspective.

Frankly, it's a professional obligation we have as CPAs in Canada to keep our client information private. Just as you would expect, when you go to your doctor that they keep your medical information private, we are very serious about keeping our client affairs private as well. That's the point of the case before the courts.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON

I'm not going to add any commentary. I, obviously, have opinions on that, but I want to get through as many questions as possible.

It's my understanding, through some media reports that have come out, that CRA provided amnesty for up to 26 KPMG clients.

If the tax scheme that's being reported was only used 16 times, why are there 26? Is it for multiple people within one family?

11:10 a.m.

Partner, KPMG

Gregory Wiebe

There were 16 implementations of the plan which involved 27 individuals or 27 parties. That's where the discrepancy in the numbers that you would have there would come from.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON

Was KPMG also provided amnesty for your role by CRA?

11:10 a.m.

Partner, KPMG

Gregory Wiebe

I'm not allowed...Because of settlement privilege, I cannot talk to the details of the settlement at all, unfortunately.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON

Including whether or not you had to pay restitution?

11:10 a.m.

Partner, KPMG

Gregory Wiebe

I'm not allowed to talk to any aspect of the settlement, but if you'd like, I can give some perspective on the aspect of tax settlements in Canada on a general basis.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON

No. I'm more interested in your involvement in this, but thank you for that opportunity.

11:10 a.m.

Partner, KPMG

Gregory Wiebe

You're welcome.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON

What was the total revenue received by KPMG for this particular package offered?

11:10 a.m.

Partner, KPMG

Gregory Wiebe

The average fee for the 16 implementations was about $100,000, so the total fees that we would have received for implementing this particular plan was just shy of $1.6 million, in the $1.5 to $1.6 million range.

It was a fixed fee per implementation. It was not a contingent fee or whatever.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON

Who were the CRA employees who negotiated the amnesty deal with KPMG and your clients?

11:10 a.m.

Partner, KPMG

Gregory Wiebe

As I said earlier, unfortunately I'm not allowed to talk about any aspect of the settlement because it's subject to settlement privilege.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON

Who were your main contacts at CRA on this package?

11:10 a.m.

Partner, KPMG

Gregory Wiebe

As I said earlier, that's one aspect of this conversation that I unfortunately cannot get into.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON

Is Jeff Sadrian still employed with KPMG?

11:10 a.m.

Partner, KPMG

Gregory Wiebe

Yes, he is.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON

Did he advise on or have any involvement in the Isle of Man package?

11:10 a.m.

Partner, KPMG

Gregory Wiebe

I am not allowed to talk about the settlement package.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON

Sorry, not the settlement package, the Isle of Man package, not the settlement.

11:10 a.m.

Partner, KPMG

Gregory Wiebe

The tax plan?

The tax plan was created in 1999. I think he's been with us for a couple of years now, so 1999 was when it was developed.

The last time it was implemented was 2003. There were different facts and circumstances, and one further implementation in 2007, but for all intents and purposes that plan wasn't implemented after 2003.