Finance Committee on Nov. 1st, 2018

[Larry Maguire]

Thank you.

I'm not a regular member of the committee, Mr. Chair. It just seems to me that if we're dealing with taxation issues and we have witnesses here today who can provide the answers, it's a bit reversed. I would say that the answers to these questions should go to the environment committee before we worry about the recommendations of the environment committee coming back to the taxation committee, which is basically what this committee is. It's the finance committee of the House of Commons.

I would think there certainly would be much more clarity for future or other committees to have answers to these questions so that they could deal with them at that point. It would be more information for them that might be duplicated, particularly when we have witnesses here.

You've indicated that on Tuesday, I believe, the minister is coming.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Yes.

[Larry Maguire]

Therefore, it may be information that would be relevant to ask the minister or his officials at that time. That limits us in our amount of time, given that this is the last committee meeting this week.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Mr. Chair, I disagree with Mr. Poilievre on a lot of things. I certainly disagree with him on carbon pricing. I do say, however, that I agree with him on being able to ask questions of ministerial officials. The motion that the committee adopted by a majority vote does not exclude our asking questions of the Department of Finance officials. If it had ever been framed as such, I think it would have been very difficult to pass that motion.

You're right to say, Mr. Chair, that there is some work that is going to other committees. They will not tackle it from the tax and fiscal perspective.

I don't think anybody is abusing this process. It's true that we're dealing with the largest omnibus legislation in Canadian history and the timelines are ridiculous—

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

I've never heard that before.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

—but at the same time, I don't think anybody is abusing the process. We're trying to get the work done despite a framework that is ridiculous.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Okay—

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

To be able to ask questions in just a straightforward way I think saves us time, in the end. Otherwise, we'll be doing a lot of procedural wrangling and that serves nobody's interests.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Okay. I hear you.

Mr. Fergus.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

First of all, let me just say to the members who are new to the committee that this committee has had a wonderful reputation as not being very partisan or getting caught up in procedural issues. It's very rare that this would happen.

Second, the motion did pass, Mr. Julian. Forgive me if my memory's wrong, but it wasn't on division. It was actually unanimous. This was the procedural motion to make sure that we would farm out relevant items of the budget implementation act, Bill C-86. As a result, we're just going back on our word about what we had all agreed to do.

We will have an opportunity to come back. We can't say that this is a belt-and-suspenders thing and then call it an omnibus bill at the same time, or say that it's a taxation bill. We need to have some.... We'll have an opportunity to go back.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Okay.

I would prefer that we go the other way, but if the questions relate just to tax matters, then I'm willing to take them. Keep them short and to the point and we'll move on. I do not want to get into a situation where witnesses come before this committee and there are questions raised that should be dealt with by another committee, because we did farm that out. I'll try to be fair here, but we want the questions to stick to the fiscal or financial issues related to this.

Go ahead. Raise your question.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to say that I have found you to be a very—

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Oh, sorry, I forgot about the votes.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Do you want me to come back to that? I know we're five minutes from the vote now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

How many votes are there? Is it one?

We'll suspend and come back after the votes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

We will reconvene.

Mr. Poilievre has the floor. Then we will go to Mr. McLeod.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate your good work. I wanted to say thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to ask these questions. I have found you to be very fair in your role as chair.

I will go to the questions.

You said that the HST applies to allowances of carbon emissions that exist in provincial jurisdictions where there's a cap and trade system. Does the HST apply then to the cost of the federal carbon tax in backstop jurisdictions?

[Pierre Mercille]

I don't want to restart a debate here, but the amendment in part 2 is about carbon allowance. There's no amendment in part 2 about carbon pricing in general.

I can talk to you about the application of GST/HST on carbon allowance such as under the cap and trade system, if that's what you want.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

It's a very simple question. Does the HST apply to the federal price on carbon in backstop jurisdictions?

[Pierre Mercille]

The GST/HST is a broad-based tax that applies to a broad base of properties and services. Essentially, fuel is subject to the GST/HST.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Your department has released a table estimating the cost of the carbon tax to the average family. Does that include the HST?

[Pierre Mercille]

I'm not prepared to talk about that because it's not my file.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

All right.

Mr. Chair, when are we going to get a chance to ask those questions?

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

I expect the witnesses who will be before the other committee will be able to answer those questions, but once we see what they do, if we feel we need to bring those witnesses before this committee to relate to those kinds of questions, we can do it.