Evidence of meeting #184 for Finance in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was proposed.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Manuel Dussault  Senior Director, Framework Policy, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Justin Brown  Director, Financial Stability, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Peter Fragiskatos  London North Centre, Lib.
Yuki Bourdeau  Senior Advisor, Capital Markets Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Eleanor Ryan  Director General, Financial Institutions Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Jean-François Girard  Director, Consumer Affairs, Financial Institutions Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Brigitte Goulard  Deputy Commissionner, Financial Consumer Agency of Canada
Kim Rudd  Northumberland—Peterborough South, Lib.
Mark Schaan  Director General, Marketplace Framework Policy Branch, Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada
Ian Wright  Director, Financial Crimes Governance and Operations, Department of Finance
Darryl C. Patterson  Director, Corporate, Insolvency and Competition Policy Directorate, Marketplace Framework Policy Branch, Department of Industry
Martin Simard  Director, Copyright and Trademark Policy, Marketplace Framework Policy Branch, Department of Industry
Andrea Flewelling  Senior Policy Advisor, Marketplace Framework Policy Branch, Department of Industry
Patrick Blanar  Senior Policy Analyst, Patent Policy Directorate, Department of Industry
Dale MacMillan  Vice-President, Corporate Services and Chief Financial Officer, National Research Council of Canada
Christopher Johnstone  Director General, National Programs and Business Services, National Research Council of Canada
Eric Grant  Director, Community Lands Development, Lands and Environmental Management, Lands and Economic Development, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Leane Walsh  Director, Fiscal Policy and Investment Readiness, Economic Policy Development, Lands and Economic Development, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Susan Waters  Director General, Lands and Environmental Management Branch, Lands and Economic Development, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Michèle Govier  Senior Director, Trade Rules, International Trade and Finance Branch, Department of Finance
Katharine Funtek  Executive Director, Trade Controls Policy, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Bev Shipley  Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, CPC
Nicole Giles  Director, International Trade and Finance, Assistant Deputy Minister's Office, Department of Finance
Deirdre Kent  Director General, International Assistance Policy, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Mark Lusignan  Director General, Grants and contributions Management, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade (International Trade)
Michelle Kaminski  Director, Office of Innovative Finance, Grants and Contributions Management, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Chantal Larocque  Deputy Director, Development Finance, Grants and Contributions Financial Policy, Foreign Affairs Canada
Danielle Bélanger  Director, Gender-Based Analysis Plus and Strategic Policy, Policy and External Relations Directorate, Status of Women Canada
Alison McDermott  General Director, Economic and Fiscal Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Derek Armstrong  Executive Director, Results Division, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Lori Straznicky  Executive Director, Pay Equity Task Team, Strategic Policy, Analysis and Workplace Information, Labour Program, Department of Employment and Social Development
Don Graham  Senior Advisor to the Assistant Deputy Minister, Compensation and Labour Relations Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Bruce Kennedy  Manager, Pay Equity Task Team, Labour Program, Department of Employment and Social Development
Richard Stuart  Executive Director, Expenditure Analysis and Compensation Planning, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Colin Spencer James  Senior Director, Social Development Policy, Strategic and Service Policy Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development
Andrew Brown  Director General, Employment Insurance Policy Directorate, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development
Barbara Moran  Director General, Strategic Policy, Analysis and Workplace, Labour Program, Department of Employment and Social Development
Rutha Astravas  Director, Employment Insurance Policy, Special Benefits Policy, Department of Employment and Social Development
Charles Philippe Rochon  Senior Policy Analyst, Labour Standards and Wage Earner Protection Program, Workplace Directorate, Department of Employment and Social Development

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Pierre Poilievre

How many complaints did the office receive about the absence of a college from applicants—not from agents themselves—in order to lead to the necessity for a college?

5:35 p.m.

Director General, Marketplace Framework Policy Branch, Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada

Mark Schaan

The drive for the college was less driven by complaints. We believe that the vast majority of patent and trademark agents are acting in good stead.

The drive for the college was the incompleteness of the governance structure. In part, the inability to know how one might complain was potentially preventing complaints from happening in the first place. Even if they were minimal in nature, right now the process is not transparent; it's opaque. That's why we drove it.

It was also driven by a change that we made to the law to grant patent agents and trademark agents the equivalent of solicitor-client privilege. That's so the communications between inventors and their patent and trademark agents would be privileged, so you don't perhaps unduly leak your secrets related to your invention. The feeling was that this privilege was such an important responsibility that we needed a complete and robust governance structure around that privilege.

5:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Pierre Poilievre

Are there any limits on the fees the college will be able to charge those seeking licences?

5:40 p.m.

Director General, Marketplace Framework Policy Branch, Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada

Mark Schaan

No. There is, however, a capacity and a requirement for them to file an annual report and for the minister to be able to seek specific information for them to address, including things such as fees or examination practices.

5:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Pierre Poilievre

What about the concern that, often, occupational licensing bodies tend to limit the supply of licensees in a given sector? This has been a major problem, in particular for internationally trained professionals and tradespeople who are deprived of the opportunity to apply their skills, skills that they had applied in other comparable jurisdictions, and are condemned to 60%, 70% or 80% pay reductions as a result.

Had you considered the effect of occupational licensing in terms of creating of new barriers to entry?

5:40 p.m.

Director General, Marketplace Framework Policy Branch, Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada

Mark Schaan

It was a fundamental preoccupation for us in the creation of the college. That's why the majority member model of the governance structure is not appointed from the profession itself, but appointed by the minister, to allow for that oversight body and a commitment to the public interest that wouldn't be self-interested but actually would feature into the public interest considerations.

5:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Pierre Poilievre

I hope so. Around the world, there is this phenomenon of occupational licensing. Particularly if we're concerned about minorities and people who face systematic barriers and discrimination, I worry that sometimes these bodies have become more of a barrier than an enabler. I put that on the record.

Mr. Chair, I believe I'm getting the hook.

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Are there any other questions?

Mr. Kmiec.

5:40 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

Regarding the college, I was a registrar for a professional association before. Is there a reason that under proposed sections 22 and 23, where it says “Registrar” and “Chief Executive Officer”, it's not explicit that the registrar cannot also be the CEO?

If one of the purposes was to split the two roles so that one person keeps the register and makes sure the professional standards are kept in a certain way and they're the ones administering the exam, making sure you have the ethical standards to be the professional you're supposed to be, and then there's a chief executive officer who actually runs the operations of the college, why isn't it made explicit that one cannot be the other, that it cannot be the same person?

5:40 p.m.

Director General, Marketplace Framework Policy Branch, Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada

Mark Schaan

The flexibility was granted to the college to allow for a senior leadership model that was flexible in nature.

5:40 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

Okay, but that's one of the problems. It's self-regulation in the provinces. In big accounting bodies or engineers, the really big ones, they make it explicit. They divide up the roles. They also make it much more explicit that the person doing the disciplining cannot also be the registrar. In many cases, usually it must be a volunteer member of the profession in order to ensure that there's some type of distance from the registrar.

I wonder why that wasn't there. That flexibility is typically what leads to problems later on, especially for the smaller associations.

How many of these agents do you anticipate there being once the college is formed?

5:40 p.m.

Senior Policy Analyst, Patent Policy Directorate, Department of Industry

Patrick Blanar

From memory, I believe the minimum number would be seven.

5:40 p.m.

Director General, Marketplace Framework Policy Branch, Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada

Mark Schaan

That's right.

5:40 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

I mean the total number of members who would appear on the register, an estimate. What do you think is the approximate number?

5:40 p.m.

Senior Policy Analyst, Patent Policy Directorate, Department of Industry

Patrick Blanar

I don't know offhand.

5:40 p.m.

Director General, Marketplace Framework Policy Branch, Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada

Mark Schaan

I don't have the numbers for it. It exists now. These agents already exist. I would say there are thousands of patent and trademark agents in the country.

5:40 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

Would you say there are over 10,000, or fewer than 10,000?

5:40 p.m.

Director, Copyright and Trademark Policy, Marketplace Framework Policy Branch, Department of Industry

Martin Simard

No, there are fewer than 10,000.

5:40 p.m.

Director General, Marketplace Framework Policy Branch, Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada

Mark Schaan

There are fewer than 10,000.

5:40 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

With fewer than 10,000, then, it would be like a mid-size professional association.

I notice a lot of the rules governing how the election of the board will happen. There are some transitory rules. The minister gets to appoint, and for a transition period, that's fine, but I see that a lot of the ones setting out the terms for elected directors are set in bylaws. I find that a little unusual.

Typically the accounting profession, for instance, provincially, sets those terms out in a regulation. The board itself cannot decide suddenly, well, the elected terms of office are going to be longer than we thought they were going to be, so we're going to extend our terms longer because we're the board and we can do such things.

Is there any mechanism in the legislation to prevent a board from doing that?

5:45 p.m.

Senior Policy Analyst, Patent Policy Directorate, Department of Industry

Patrick Blanar

First of all, they're set at three years, and they can be shortened by bylaw, but also—

5:45 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

Would you point out where it says “three years”? I totally missed that.

5:45 p.m.

Senior Policy Analyst, Patent Policy Directorate, Department of Industry

Patrick Blanar

Regarding the board members, proposed subsection 15(1) says:

Each director is to be appointed or elected for a term of not more than three years, and may be reappointed or re-elected for subsequent terms of not more than three years each.

There is a hard cap, but they can be determined. If you look at “Determination of term” in proposed subsection 15(2), the length of a director's term is “set out by the Minister”, or “determined in accordance with the by-laws”, so terms can be shortened.

5:45 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

But they can't be lengthened.

5:45 p.m.

Senior Policy Analyst, Patent Policy Directorate, Department of Industry

Patrick Blanar

They can be re-elected or renominated, but they can't be lengthened beyond that. There needs to be a process at least every three years.