Evidence of meeting #188 for Finance in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was workers.
A video is available from Parliament.
10:20 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter
Okay.
We'll have to end it there. That's a really interesting discussion.
Ms. Rudd.
10:20 a.m.
Kim Rudd Northumberland—Peterborough South, Lib.
It is a very interesting discussion, and thank you all for coming today.
For your information and the record, my colleague Mr. Julian brought up the few days there is left for you to make your submissions. I'm just confirming with the clerk. You have until November 15.
There are a couple of things. First of all, I want to follow up on Mr. Poilievre's comments about poverty, and the goal of moving people out of poverty and into the middle class. As you know, our government's done a number of things, and it flows back to Ms. Hannah's comment about data.
Whether it's the Canada child benefit, the increase to GIS for vulnerable seniors or the Canada workers benefit, as I listen to Mr. Lee and the talk about eliminating the deficits, I wonder where he cut. One of the things that help governments decide where to put those resources is data. It's one of the things we certainly recognized, when we came into government, as something we needed to improve. As you know, the long-form census was cut, and now it's back. That's helpful, but it's going to take time to build that dataset again.
You mentioned some studies and other things, but can you give us some suggestions about what you think is the most useful direction, where that data might best come from and maybe what it should be focused on?
10:25 a.m.
Prof. Erin Hannah
Very recently I was at the World Trade Organization Public Forum, and the gender and trade agenda was a big theme. Canada's chief economist was on a panel precisely on this issue, talking about data. One of the things she said was that one of the best things, and the farthest from where we are right now, is having these big sets of panel data at the individual level that can be tracked over a long time to see the long-term impacts, not just on households, but on individuals within households. That's blue-sky thinking at this point, but some of the funding that's included in the budget could go some distance to meeting those aspirations.
I said earlier, Canada's not in this alone. We're not the only country that's trying to do this. The gender and trade unit from the U.K. was just here last week talking with the Ministry of International Trade Diversification precisely on this issue, because everyone's trying to get this right. Similarly, international organizations such as the United Nations Conference on Trade and Development are also trying to get this right. They've developed something called a gender tool box, which is studying precisely this: the impact of potential free trade agreements on countries. In that case it's only been tested in west Africa, so it's looked at the economic partnership agreement between the European Union and the East African community to see what the impacts would be.
I have a host of criticisms about that, because it's focused only on the formal economy and only on women as economic actors, and so on. Everyone's groping around in the dark on this issue. Unfortunately, I don't have the answers except to say there needs to be a multi-dimensional approach. Like I said to your colleague, we need to think about employment and wages, certainly, but also about impacts on consumption of public services. Also, we need to start thinking beyond women entrepreneurs and women as economic actors, and instead think about the multiplicity of roles that women play in the economy.
10:25 a.m.
Northumberland—Peterborough South, Lib.
A holistic approach, if you will.
Thank you very much.
Mr. Hynes, I want to give you an opportunity. I was listening carefully. Mr. Julian asked you a question and then went to someone else. Would you like to continue that thought?
10:25 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, FETCO Inc.
Yes, I think it was around flexibility.
10:25 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, FETCO Inc.
Some concerns that have been raised in front of this committee over the past week are around the whole issue of acknowledging the diverse needs of the employer community and flexibility within the system. Certainly, that is something we have long advocated for, in the context of being supportive of the concept of pay equity. I think the government, to its credit, acknowledged this with that clause and with a clause further on in the bill around the minister's authority to create some exceptions and exemptions.
We're not advocating for an ability to get around responsibilities, but rather for an ability to create mechanics within the system that work in a respective organization, acknowledging that not all organizations are the same.
10:25 a.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON
Dr. Lee, thank you very much for being here today. Can you just give a basic lesson on where government gets its borrowed money?
10:25 a.m.
Associate Professor, Sprott School of Business, Carleton University, As an Individual
Okay, but I wasn't expecting that. I don't want to go deep into the weeds, but without getting into things like monetizing the debt and that sort of thing, governments borrow their money, although they don't have to. I'm talking about federal governments, sovereign governments. We have a printing press called a central bank. I'm not even including countries in the European Union like Greece, which don't have their own central banks anymore. I'm referring to countries like Canada, the U.K., Japan, and so forth.
10:25 a.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON
Generally speaking, just give us an example from an average year.
10:25 a.m.
Associate Professor, Sprott School of Business, Carleton University, As an Individual
We're talking sovereign borrowers, governments, not subnational governments, because they don't have—
10:25 a.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON
You got it. The Government of Canada, how does it borrow money?
10:25 a.m.
Associate Professor, Sprott School of Business, Carleton University, As an Individual
The Government of Canada raises money in the bond market.
10:25 a.m.
Associate Professor, Sprott School of Business, Carleton University, As an Individual
It sells bonds in the capital markets to pension funds, hedge funds, wealth funds and so forth. Money in the real economy, however, is being paid for those bonds, that is to say, they're not being printed, as I used the phrase colloquially. It's not being monetized.
10:30 a.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON
Right, hedge funds, wealth funds...so you have to have wealth, then, to buy these bonds.
10:30 a.m.
Associate Professor, Sprott School of Business, Carleton University, As an Individual
Somebody has to have the money to pay for those bonds, yes. Not someone like me—someone who's wealthy.
10:30 a.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON
Someone who's wealthy, so we owe the debt to wealthy people.
10:30 a.m.
Associate Professor, Sprott School of Business, Carleton University, As an Individual
Or corporations or investors.
10:30 a.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON
And corporations or investors are probably all wealthy also. Do working-class people pay interest on that debt when they send tax dollars to Ottawa?
10:30 a.m.
Associate Professor, Sprott School of Business, Carleton University, As an Individual
Well, certainly the government does pay interest on the debt.
10:30 a.m.
Conservative
10:30 a.m.
Associate Professor, Sprott School of Business, Carleton University, As an Individual
It includes anyone who's paying taxes, for sure.