Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I've been listening to some of the concerns about my subamendments, so I'll try to deal with them sequentially.
Mr. Fergus, you compared this potential open banking study to what was done with the money laundering act. I was wondering when the original motion was passed versus when that committee reported back. That was a really big study and it did take a longer period of time. I think we started with an idea at the beginning of what we were looking at, and then as you started to discover more and more.... Disagree with me if I'm getting it wrong, but I think I joined the committee partway through the beginning of that study and I definitely got the feeling that we were changing our minds on the scope of what we were looking at with the different mechanics involved. What we originally thought of was a study on the money laundering act and what we ended up with, and the knowledge we gained from it, took a long time to build. I would hope that would not be the experience with the open banking study, only because that one took so long. I think it took a year—and correct me, Clerk, if I'm wrong—before we reported back, which would mean that this committee would perhaps be consumed with the report writing.
It brings me to a few other concerns. These are about the travel and how many meetings that would take, and whether it would be on the record or not. On the point about the comparisons to the money laundering act and the quality of the study that was done then, it is a quality study. You'll notice that the Conservatives did not dissent. We very much agreed with the recommendations provided. You mentioned Mr. Albas and the point he made at the time that it was worth meeting with these individuals and hearing from them on something as large as the money laundering act. That's his opinion and he's obviously welcome to it. I think there was still an opportunity there to hear from a lot of witnesses on the record.
This brings me to another point I had written down. My subamendment removes the potential confusion, some of it at least, in the way the amendment you have is structured right now. I have a concern about public committee meetings where there's an official transcript versus the private meetings that this committee can have with officials in other countries and how that makes it into the final report. Maybe someone can clarify this for me. Was the intention potentially that if travel were approved to the United Kingdom, for example, there would be public meetings of this committee for expert testimony to be received in a public manner, and part of the public record would be made available in both official languages on the committee's website, and be part of the report brief? Or was the intention that we'd have private meetings mostly and perhaps no public meetings
That information would be held just by us and then we would be adding it into the report somehow. Maybe these organizations or witnesses whom we would meet with overseas would provide a brief of some sort that would then form the public document that we would file with the House of Commons as part of our committee report.
I'm a little concerned that there's a difference in the openness and transparency of our meeting with individuals, and making sure we report back, and then having a transcript of what was said. I'm surprised by how many emails I get from Canadians who do listen to our proceedings and actually go back through old transcripts and bring up things I've said in the past or asked for meetings based on things I've said at committee. I'm sure you have had the same experience as I do. Quite a bit more Canadians are interested in the proceedings of the finance committee. I hope that if we travel overseas we have individuals and there would be public testimony. Perhaps someone can clarify that point to me.
On another point, with my subpoints (a) to (j) that would be changed, I'm providing more of the context without leaving it—I think it's fairly open right now—into sections. We could have a conversation on whether all of these points need to be in there or only some of them, but it directs the committee to look at specific components of open banking to ensure that they're reported into findings. My experience with motions is that this is where you figure out the witnesses associated with each point whom you can bring in. This is why I have them laid out here. They are pretty thorough and complete. I want to make sure that if we do a study on open banking, it is complete and it's as open as possible to the types of witnesses the committee could consider. As for the time allocated to the study, there is a government committee right now that has had its findings reported to it and it's supposed to be reporting it to the government. I hope we would not duplicate the work of that committee, the advisory group on open banking set up by the Government of Canada.
The difference between my subamendment and the amendment proposed by Mr. Fergus is one meeting, as I read it right now. The amendment Mr. Fergus has proposed leaves the potential for travel to the United Kingdom, where we might or might not have public meetings for which there would be on-the-record information available and a transcript.
Eventually there would be expert testimony given to us in private in relation to which there may or may not be a public brief filed with the committee that will then be available as part of a report. That is unclear to me.
This is why I have a concern about our then having used up several meetings in April to consider the draft findings, the report we would file and committee drafting instructions. You would see the first draft, and that could take up several meetings. My concern is that we would then no longer have any time to consider any other subjects.
You know what subject is near and dear to my heart, because I don't hide it: the B-20 stress test rule, which I have mentioned probably several times. Some of you are getting emails from organizations, I'm sure, asking for this committee to consider the B-20 stress test review in an open study, and I have a motion before the committee, as you know, additionally.
Again, the difference between my subamendment and the amendment is just one meeting. My subamendment, however, makes clear that a finite number of meetings would be allocated, and it would not allow for travel. This means that there would only be three meetings on open banking. We have an advisory group on the Government of Canada side already doing this work.
If the Senate—that “other place”—is taking up a study as well, then you have one government organization and two legislative bodies taking a look at open banking. I don't know how many witnesses each of them will be able to find who will be able to talk about it in varying aspects. I also don't know what the content of the Senate's motion may or may not be for consideration of a study.
Mr. Sorbara, you mentioned that there's a lot of interest in open banking. We've all heard the advertising going on right now about Meridian Credit Union forming a new financial institution, Motusbank, based on this concept of open banking. I know it's timely.
As I said at a previous meeting, 90% of what open banking is about is already being practised by banks and other financial institutions; they're already rolling it out. I would hope that our study would not be just confirmation of what is already going on in the marketplace, what is already happening within the mix of financial institutions—the chartered banks, the credit unions and government-owned banks such as Alberta Treasury Branches and what they are already doing. I hope we would add something to the mix.
If you remember, the original conversations we had about a general open banking study were about specific legislative changes to be proposed to the Bank Act. I know this is neither in my subamendment nor in the amendment proposed by Mr. Fergus; however, I hope we would not just be looking at the policy matters, because the policy matters have already, I think, been determined by the Government of Canada. It's already moving ahead with allowing for open banking, and financial institutions are already doing it
How many meetings, then, could we possibly have, if three groups could potentially be meeting with witnesses on open banking? How much duplication in the reports would there be? I'm a big believer in limited government, with everybody doing the role they've been assigned to do.
If we're going to do a study on open banking, I think it should be limited, should be focused and should be on the points I have mentioned here. It would focus us on very specific issues. We should focus our witness list to the points I'm making.
This is why I think we need only those three meetings and then not have the potential for other travel to be assigned. That's the way I read the amendment proposed by Mr. Fergus, according to which there could be four meetings in Ottawa.
Then potentially we could be travelling to the United Kingdom, which could take a week or two, depending on how long we take to meet with witnesses there. Then there's the potential for public meetings, perhaps—it's not clear in the motion—in the U.K., and then private meetings as well.
Are we talking about both of these at the same time, or are we talking about having private meetings and then asking them to file a report of some sort? I looked through the money laundering act and I could not figure out whether every single one of the organizations received more than just a mention of having met with the committee so that the public could know the list of organizations considered expert witnesses before the committee on that subject.
I understand it in some situations. We had a meeting with FINTRAC, in camera, where they divulged how they operate. Those I understand. They can't be a part of the official record, the transcripts of the committee. In those types of situations we should make an allocation for it. I would hope that any meetings that we have potentially overseas—and I'm trying to limit them here so we don't do that—are on the record.
There are many organizations that are asking for meetings. I tell them that whatever they have to tell me in private, they should be comfortable enough coming to committee and telling it to me in public, and having the interpreters do their job of providing interpretation in both official languages of what they are providing to us, including their briefs.
I try to limit the amount of organizations that I meet with. If they're not willing to come before the committee to say the same things, then I try to limit that as much as possible, which is again, why I think three meetings are sufficient. It leaves, then, the opportunity for us to consider other subject matter. I'd like to get at least some indication of whether there's an interest on the government caucus side to consider other subject matter after the study, and then we can move on to other things, of course.
I know on this particular subject, the longer we wait to pass it, the less time we'll have for other things. I'm very conscious of that. I just want to make sure that the committee's time between now and June is used both by subject matter that interests the government caucus members, as well as opposition members who are also members of this committee. We also have a role to play to represent our constituents; and that's basically what we're trying to achieve here, to get a good motion passed that is tight, has specific language with specific timelines. And then we can seriously consider other subject matter that the opposition deems necessary to look at, which allows for enough time for there to be a review of those things as well.
Again, I think I've been reasonable in saying that I don't expect recommendations. Neither the motion here nor the amendment or the subamendment is looking for recommendations on open banking. I think it's just going to be findings, just very general. I believe that's what the government's advisory group is going to be doing as well with the advice they are going to be providing to Minister Morneau. I also think it's likely that the Senate, in whatever it considers, may not be considering just the findings. Perhaps they'll give recommendations. I think most reports that are at the Senate provide some type of recommendation. It takes less time to produce a report. I would hope that we use that time judiciously to ensure that we have considerations of other subject matter. Perhaps the members can give us an idea of how long they believe we'll be spending on the BIA, which would give us then additional meetings to have open. Then we could look at the calendar now and decide on when to schedule things, and at least have the subject matter figured out. We can leave it to the subcommittee on procedure here to determine exactly the witnesses and the specific dates that we are going to spend time on them.
I just think it makes much more sense to do it in such a fashion, than to leave it open-ended and perhaps wind up consuming a lot of the committee's time with travel to the United Kingdom without having certainty on our end that we'll be able to consider other things in between the BIA and this open banking study.
I'm also concerned that we might break up this particular study, go to the BIA and then return in the first week of June and only have about a week to report the findings back to the House of Commons, which would be a very tight period of time if we, by that time, consider new things to be looked at.
Another concern I have is actually around the upcoming budget. I'm wondering whether the minister will decide to perhaps table the findings of the report or provide more detail inside the budget document itself—budget 2019—on open banking, which may potentially make this entire study superfluous. It would be unnecessary if the government has already decided to proceed, because their advisory committee has produced some type of finding that's already been tabled with them. So, that's another concern I have. We know the budget is coming soon—likely in the third week of March. I'm prognosticating here; I'm guessing that could be the case. If that is what would happen, it could potentially derail this study if the government does proceed with either accepting open banking or choosing legislative changes in an omnibus bill or a separate piece of legislation. They could decide to proceed with regulatory changes or a public invitation to financial institutions to engage in it, smoothing the way for regulators to simplify it for the chartered banks and other financial institutions to engage in open banking.
I would then wonder why we would undertake a study that would come after the fact just to confirm what the government has already decided to do, unless, again, someone could propose an amendment to do a review of whatever is suggested in the budget document for consideration here. Again, there are now three different bodies that are looking at it. We have a budget coming forth that could go ahead and approve the concept of open banking and proceed with it.
I'm just concerned that we're not using the committee's time wisely and that it won't provide an opportunity for us to consider things like the B-20 mortgage stress test.