Finance Committee on May 27th, 2019

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Mr. Chair, we can't support his amendment because the Governor in Council website already publicly commits the government to ensuring that minority groups are taken into consideration when making a recommendation. Any time you make a short list, there's always a risk that organizations will be missed and in this case indigenous people are absent from the proposed amendment.

Furthermore, the Government of Canada has implemented an appointment process that is transparent, merit-based and strives for gender parity, so we oppose this amendment.

(Amendment negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings]

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Next is NDP-25.

Mr. Dusseault.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

This amendment is intended to delete three lines from the bill under the subheading “Dissolution”. In the English version, it is “Dissolution of Council” but just “Dissolution” in the French version. We want it to be possible for the council to continue in existence. A number of witnesses have told the committee that there will be no reason to dissolve the council. The minister might decide that the Council no longer has any use if the objective of reducing poverty by 50% below the 2015 level is achieved and that we should celebrate the fact, close the books and move on to other priorities.

But reducing, not to say eliminating, poverty, must be an on-going objective that is maintained over time. I do not know why it would be necessary to dissolve the council. Even if the objective of reducing poverty by 50% is achieved, the council will still be useful, as long as poverty has not been eliminated.

I hope that the members of the committee will adopt this reasonable amendment, so that the proposed council can do its work even after the government has achieved its objective, which I see as not ambitious enough.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Mr. McLeod.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Mr. Chairman, by tying the mandate of the council to poverty reduction targets committed to in legislation, the council will hold the Government of Canada to account and ensure that the 50% target is reached. The national advisory council on poverty shouldn't have to continue forever. Its creation and mandate are to support the government in reaching its poverty reduction targets.

We'll be opposing this amendment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Mr. Dusseault, go ahead.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

Let me go to the officials. Why would the council be dissolved once its target has been achieved? Are we going to stop making efforts to reduce poverty, congratulate ourselves, and move on to something else?

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Ms. Hall or Mr. Vaillancourt.

[Hugues Vaillancourt, Senior Director, Social Development Policy Division, Social Policy Directorate, Strategic and Service Policy Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development]

Thank you for your question, Mr. Dusseault.

The bill defines certain targets. Other measures will continue to exist, such as the various poverty indicators. The bill allows the Governor in Council to dissolve the council on poverty when its targets are achieved.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

Thank you for your answer, Mr. Vaillancourt.

I find it a real pity that the council cannot continue to exist once the targets have been achieved. I take exception to the government's position.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Mr. Poilievre.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

In practice, I'm not sure it's a major concern. Once these councils are set up, they never disappear. They always find a way to stay around.

I've looked at these programs. They're called sunset programs, but government programs are like the British Empire. The sun never sets on them because they're just renewed and renewed. Once this council is set up, the members of the council will find another reason why they need to continue to exist and consume our resources whether or not the targets are reached. So I don't think my NDP colleague has anything to worry about.

If we should live until we're 90 years old, this council will still be around. You can celebrate its anniversary then.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

We'll see.

(Amendment negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings])

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Next is NDP-26.

Mr. Dusseault.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. We have been careful with the time we have been given. I have three minutes left.

The goal of amendment NDP-26 is to make the reports submitted to Parliament more transparent.

I can already hear the government telling me that those reports, and a lot of other information, are already published on the minister's website. However, if that is not specified in the legislation, nothing guarantees that he will do so in the future. The bill states that the “Minister must cause the report…to be tabled in each House of Parliament on any of the first 15 days on which that House is sitting after the Minister receives the report." This amendment proposes the addition of subsection 12(2), as follows: “The minister must post the report on the departmental website within 30 days after the day on which the report is tabled in Parliament.”

This request has been made to provide more transparency, and I do not see why the government would be opposed to it, unless, once again, they argue that they will do it, even though there is no legal obligation to do so, and we must not worry. It could well decide overnight that it is not going to do it anymore. With this amendment, it would be required to do it, and it could not back out of those obligations.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Let's see what Mr. McLeod has to say.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Mr. Chairman, I think the honourable member knows that reports tabled in Parliament are available to the public, so it's not necessary to legislate that the minister post it to the department website.

(Amendment negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings])

(Clause 315 as amended agreed to on division)

(Clause 316 agreed to on division)

(On clause 317)

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

There's one amendment proposed, NDP-27.

Mr. Dusseault.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

Once again, this amendment is intended simply to replace the word “reduction” with the word “elimination”. It corresponds to the amendments I introduced earlier today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Mr. Fragiskatos.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I don't support this amendment, nor does anyone on this side, Mr. Chair, for the reasons set out earlier when I rebutted I forget which amendment that my colleague opposite put forward, but the comments on poverty elimination and the critique of that approach stand with respect to this amendment as well.

(Amendment negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings])

(Clause 317 agreed to on division)

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

With that, thank you, Ms. Hall and Mr. Vaillancourt.

Tomorrow morning we will start on division 21 and go through the remainder.

We will meet at 8:45 a.m. in room 0-25.

Thank you, all.

The meeting is adjourned.