Evidence of meeting #218 for Finance in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Bob Hamilton  Commissioner of Revenue and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Revenue Agency
Ted Gallivan  Assistant Commissioner, International, Large Business and Investigations Branch, Canada Revenue Agency

12:10 p.m.

Commissioner of Revenue and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Revenue Agency

Bob Hamilton

I know my answer was lengthy, so I'll try to keep this one short. On the general issue of transparency, we're doing a number of things to make sure that the information the CRA has that would be helpful to people is made transparent. For example, we are making publicly available the tax gap analysis we are doing to try to identify the gap between taxes that should be paid and taxes that are paid.

We made available a study that we did on some of the strengths and weaknesses of CRA, and that included the weaknesses.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB

Let me stop you on that, though.

12:10 p.m.

Commissioner of Revenue and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Revenue Agency

Bob Hamilton

On that general idea, we're taking a number of actions. On the specifics of this case or of settlements in particular, we're in the process of trying to find a way to increase transparency. I certainly would prefer a situation in which we could talk about what actually gets settled. In any of the cases I've been involved in, I believe the agency has done a very good job, together with Justice, to find an outcome that's in the public interest. However, there is this tension, since we cannot reveal taxpayers' confidential information. We need to find a way, and that's what we and the minister have endeavoured to do, and we'll be looking forward to having some better transparency in the future.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Mr. Kelly, this is your extra time. Go ahead.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB

We're well over time, but this is only a comment on the tax gap. Your agency is, in fact, not providing the Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer the full anonymized data that it says it needs to be able to estimate it itself. Your measures are simply internal and they are not subject to outside scrutiny as they are now.

I would say, sir, that you fall short on the transparency.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Do you have any comments, Commissioner?

12:10 p.m.

Commissioner of Revenue and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Revenue Agency

Bob Hamilton

Yes, we have ongoing discussions with the Parliamentary Budget Officer and we do provide information to his office on every tax gap study that we do.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

I believe we're going to hear from the PBO next week, and we're probably going to have a hearing on that subject a week from Thursday.

Mr. Fragiskatos.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to the officials for being here.

Mr. Hamilton, you've already been asked about phone scams, but as you can imagine, many of our constituents have been affected and remain concerned, so I want to follow up.

You said there are education and awareness initiatives that have been taken by the CRA to combat phone scams. Can you be specific about those? What education programs and awareness programs can you point to in particular?

12:10 p.m.

Commissioner of Revenue and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Revenue Agency

Bob Hamilton

I'm certainly happy, Mr. Chair, to give the committee a more fulsome response than what I can do off the top of my head, but we do, through social media and putting out tweets, etc., warn people about the scams that are out there. We have other vehicles, on websites and other places, whereby we can try to inform Canadians about this, and I can certainly give you a more detailed written explanation of all the things we're doing. We try to make sure that we cover all of the types of communication vehicles that people are actually reading and listening to.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

Is anything being done on television? Is any message promoted on television? I ask that because, as my colleague mentioned, the elderly are particularly targeted here. They've been victimized in a great way, and yes, social media remains quite important for particular demographics, whether it's Facebook, Twitter, Instagram or the like, but television is still an important medium, particularly for seniors. Is anything being promoted on TV in terms of messaging to combat scams?

12:15 p.m.

Commissioner of Revenue and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Revenue Agency

Bob Hamilton

Unless any of my colleagues knows, I may have to get back to you on that, because I don't, off the top of my head, know what we do in terms of TV advertising on that.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

Okay.

12:15 p.m.

Commissioner of Revenue and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Revenue Agency

Bob Hamilton

I'm certainly happy to get back to you.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

I realize that you don't have the figures in front of you, but I do want to ask one last question on this issue. Does the CRA have within its budget a particular pool of money that goes towards public information campaigns of this type, and if so, how much, if you could cite that?

12:15 p.m.

Commissioner of Revenue and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Revenue Agency

Bob Hamilton

We do have awareness advertising budgets for certain things, whether we're trying to increase awareness of the benefits that we talked about earlier...and I believe the figure we have is about $6 million. I do have those figures, but not off the top of my head. It's six million dollars for 2018-19.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

And is that figure—

12:15 p.m.

Commissioner of Revenue and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Revenue Agency

Bob Hamilton

That was for general awareness of the benefits.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

I don't mean to cut you off. It's just a timing issue. That's all.

Has that number remained stable over the years, or...? For example, I think you just cited the number for 2018. How would that compare to years previous?

12:15 p.m.

Commissioner of Revenue and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Revenue Agency

Bob Hamilton

When I take a look at my notes here, it looks pretty consistent from 2014-15 forward, but it will vary from year to year. For example, this year there was increased awareness and advertising on the climate action incentive, which was particular to this year. Each year you'll have things coming in and out, but I think that level is relatively constant.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

Thank you very much.

I also want to ask, if I may, as a last question here, about improving telephone services. You mentioned that in your opening statement. In particular, you talked about lowering wait times. How is the CRA doing that? Can you also be specific in your answer on what the current average wait times are, as well as goals for the future to improve that average?

12:15 p.m.

Commissioner of Revenue and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Revenue Agency

Bob Hamilton

Mr. Chair, I have just a couple points on that, because you'll recall that a few years ago the Auditor General did a study on our call centres and found us not to be providing the level of service that he was expecting and, frankly, that we would have liked. Since then, I would say, a couple of things have caused us to improve.

One is that we've put in more resources and we've increased training for our call centre agents to make sure we improve accuracy.

However, one of the big changes we've had is that we now have a new telephone platform. New technology has come in and has allowed us to do things differently from the way we did them before. For example, it used to be that if you called us, we didn't have the ability to tell you how long the wait was going to be, so we had a rule within the CRA that we were going to try to address your call within two minutes 80% of the time, and if we didn't feel as though we could do that, you got a busy signal and called back. Now what we're able to do with this new technology, which is obviously more modern, is to tell people up front, “Your expected wait time is five minutes” or 10 minutes or whatever it is, and then people can make a choice: “I'd like to hang on” or “No, I'll call back later.” Up front, people get that choice, and the rare, rare exception will get a busy signal. You'll always get that choice, and if you decide you don't want to wait, then you'll call back. We also have beefed up our self-service efforts, so people can, if they have a fairly simple question, actually deal with it without talking to an agent.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

Do you have an average wait time, Mr. Hamilton, at the present time? Can CRA cite an average wait time for callers or not?

12:15 p.m.

Commissioner of Revenue and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Revenue Agency

Bob Hamilton

Wait times go up and down. As you can imagine, if you take the pulse at the end of April, when people are frantically calling, it will be longer. We're just in the process of figuring out with this new technology what an appropriate service standard is for us. For example, we'll want to make sure that within the average wait time we will serve most of the people within x minutes. We're trying to figure out what that is. We've had wait times of about 10 to 15 minutes on average over the period of the filing season. Again, we're still examining the data to see how much that varied and whether there's anything we can do to even it out. Obviously the pressure will come down as the year goes on, but we're just taking all of the new things we've done with the new technology to come up with what would be an appropriate service standard.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

We'll have to end it there.

Mr. Dusseault, the final question goes to you.