Finance Committee on June 9th, 2016

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

This is in regard to Mr. Caron's comments.

I agree with what he said.

I agree with what he had to say, even with getting some legal opinions in terms of what we can and can't do.

I want to echo my colleague's comments about producing a quality report. If we need to wait and move it to the fall, we move it to the fall. If we can do it before, great, and I'm open to that, but we need to make sure that Canadians have confidence in our tax system, that tax avoidance or tax evasion measures undertaken in the past aren't repeated, and that we continue to monitor the issue very closely.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Okay. Let me run this by the committee. We'll basically conclude our hearings on this topic on Tuesday. The Library of Parliament can work on the report. We'll have a meeting to work on recommendations as well. The report probably will be tabled in the fall, I would expect, given the scenario, but it would be prepared, although maybe not completely translated, which might require one final meeting in the fall or something like that. Then it basically would be off our plate.

To your point, Guy, if something develops on this issue over the summer, we can always institute a new study along the same lines, I guess, if we have to, but it would be nice to clear the deck, so to speak, and start afresh in the fall.

On your point on sub judice, I think you do have a point. If we're scared of sub judice, it can affect the ability of Parliament to do its job. We don't want to jeopardize or prejudice court cases, that's for sure. We have to be careful in that regard, but what is the line ye shall not cross? I've heard legal opinions both ways. The last thing we want to do is prejudice a court case. That's worthy of us getting an opinion on it at some point, I would think.

[Lisa Raitt, Conservative, Milton, ON]

We could always choose not to answer, Mr. Chair, and then go through a different process. It's up to them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Yes, that's true, but....

[Lisa Raitt, Conservative, Milton, ON]

That's their choice, not ours.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Yes.

Are we okay on that one? Okay. Then that's the way we'll try to proceed. We'll ask the library to start work on the report, and at the next meeting we'll talk about some of the recommendations after our first hour on Tuesday.

Go ahead, Guy.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Ideally, the meeting with the two witnesses would take place on Tuesday. I would like to point out that we have nothing planned for next Thursday. Is that correct, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

They have been invited for one hour on Tuesday.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Do we have anything on Thursday? There's nothing on the schedule so far.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

There's nothing on the schedule for Thursday as yet.

On the pre-budget consultations, I've said earlier that the word.... I am a member of the liaison committee. In terms of the discussions we've had with the whip, there has been some big spending by some committees already, substantial spending; I guess I had better not use the word “big”. We have to look at the budget we're on and at getting through until March 31. You also have to keep in reserve in that budget enough money for committees to do their work, even if it's just here, in terms of witnesses, meals, etc.

The view is that.... The difficulty, I think, for this committee is that we're legislated to do pre-budget hearings. We're not obligated to travel, and I know that, but I think we all felt that it would be useful for us to travel at least this year. In any event, unless some money appears from somewhere by fall, that option is limited, if not out the window.

In any event, what do we do? Suzie has put together a kind of a schedule on travel. Her options, I think, would be these: that we do all our hearings in Ottawa, which is the way it was done for the last two or three years; that we travel along the lines we had originally conceived that we might do; or, we hold a video conference with each city that we would have travelled to on a set day. Those would be the kinds of options I see. What are your thoughts on that?

Ms. Raitt.

[Lisa Raitt, Conservative, Milton, ON]

Mr. Chair, on one side, I understand fiscal prudence, and that makes sense. It is unfortunate that we're placed in a situation, since we do have the mandate, as you rightly pointed out. I would also point out that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Finance, for every single question I ask in the House of Commons, base their whole argument on why their budget is good for Canada on the premise that they travelled from coast to coast to coast in unprecedented consultations.

We will not have the ability to do that as a committee of the House of Commons with a specific mandate to do pre-budget consultations. I would lodge my complaint that this has happened, and I would respectfully request this be communicated back through the members of Parliament here who have more connections with the Government of Canada than I do.

It does seem to be a difficulty for us to be able to forcefully indicate that we are hearing the will of Canadians if we don't have the ability to visit those Canadians where they live, and given that is exactly why the legitimacy of the budget has been claimed by the minister. He travelled. The parliamentary secretary travelled. Therefore, their budget is legitimate because they listened to Canadians. Yet our ability to travel is being curtailed.

That's my point of view on it, and I'm happy to hear what other members have to say.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

I doubt if you're going to get any disagreement.

Phil.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I underscore exactly what my colleague said, but I think what needs to be communicated equally is.... I feel that this committee, as one of the most important committees arguably on Parliament Hill, if not the most important committee on Parliament Hill, is being denied travel because of other priorities and mismanagement of the resources available. The mandate of this committee is to go out and do this, but the reason we're not getting this money, as has just been explained by the chair, is that it's been spent by other committees. That is absolute total nonsense. I'd like that communicated to whoever is managing the funds on the government's behalf.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

On that, there has been a huge demand from committees to travel, as we are a new Parliament. I don't think there's any question about that.

Where I would like to go—and I'll come to you, Raj—is that in our budget request, at least to the liaison committee and knowing what we're up against, we should put up two or three scenarios. There's one, with where the money is at right now, and there's two, if more money would be added by the fall. I don't know that. We need two or three scenarios from which to work and go to the liaison committee.

Raj.

[Raj Grewal, Liberal, Brampton East, ON]

I will let the clerk and the analyst confirm this, but I don't think the finance committee travelled in the last four years.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

No, it didn't. In 2011 was the last time.

[Raj Grewal, Liberal, Brampton East, ON]

That was the last time it travelled.

Given modern technology, I think there are a lot of ways to connect with Canadians across the country from coast to coast to coast to ensure we get adequate pre-budget consultations. I think we can all agree that in 2016 and going into 2017, we should be able to do this. If that requires us sitting longer, I think we did a great job this year given the time crunch. I think we're all prepared to do that going into the next pre-budget consultations.

It's unfortunate, but I don't think it's the end of the day, and I don't think it will have an impact on how big the budget will be.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Mr. Caron.

[Lisa Raitt, Conservative, Milton, ON]

[Inaudible—Editor]

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

I hear what Ms. Raitt says. It is a strong argument.

Let's remember that during the election.... I am thinking of the TPP study. There has been a promise to consult widely with Canadians on the TPP. That is being done through the international trade committee. There has been a promise to consult. The government is saying it consulted widely on the budget, which has been done through the budget of the Department of Finance. We are not given the opportunity to consult on something that we should have seen, because it is done every year.

I do have some problems. If the government has said it will be open and transparent and will actually hold consultations, it should be funding the ability of committees to do that. In that case, if consulting with Canadians is done by the government, which is legitimate, then it should be done with department and government funds, not with committee funds. In that sense, either the TPP study, through the international trade committee, should have been done the same way that we are being asked right now, which is with video conference, or the minister and staff could have gone on the DFAIT budget. That would have been another possibility. Now we are stuck because it is by first come, first served that we are using the committee funds.

I find it hard to believe. I would like to have some answers as to whether we can have more money in the committee budget, in general, and also some kind of priority set among committees on how this money would be used. This issue came to me today, so I am not necessarily prepared to have my whole argument, but it would be legitimate to start seeing what the priorities are in terms of how this general budget for committees is being spent.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

It just came to me today, too, Guy.

On Guy's point, if I could, there is a travel budget, which has been allocated by the Board of Internal Economy. I don't disagree with your point at all. This committee is legislated to do pre-budget hearings. The committee hasn't travelled in four years. I agree with Raj. There are ways of doing it without travel, but I also know, as one who has appeared before committees, that there is something for the benefit of the committee to be in the regions, and for the benefit of the regions to do their presentations in their own territory. I think this committee finds itself in a somewhat different position. It probably wouldn't hurt if each of you talked to your whips as well and said that this committee has a mandate that is legislated, and at least in the initial year it would be sensible to travel. In the next two you might not have to, or if you don't this year, maybe you do next year.

Mr. MacKinnon.

[Steven MacKinnon, Liberal, Gatineau, QC]

Those are my sentiments exactly, and perhaps an all too rare moment of harmony on the committee. I do agree with my colleague Mr. Grewal that we should continuously explore ways to hear from Canadians by way of innovative means, technological or other, but given the fact that there have not been extensive pre-budget consultations by this committee—and by “extensive” I mean outside of Ottawa—since 2011, I think it is well past due for this committee to do it. You underscored the legislative mandate of this committee.

I am quite sympathetic to Ms. Raitt's argument that it would be frustrating—as we on this side probably heard for a great many years—to have ministers or parliamentary secretaries say that this is a result of a consultation that they weren't exposed to. I would add my voice to those of my colleagues in saying that it would be well-nigh inexcusable for this committee not to have the opportunity to hear from Canadians on the budget, especially given the accelerated nature of our consultations last year.

With that, Mr. Chair, I would add my voice to those of Mr. Grewal and my friends across, and wish you the best.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

We will do up a budget on full travel. We will do up a budget on video conference travel, because we will have to, and see where we end up. The cities we have listed are Vancouver and Kelowna. Does the committee have any options on those? Who was it I was talking to who said that Kelowna would be good?

[Lisa Raitt, Conservative, Milton, ON]

Everybody has a representative in the area, and it's not often visited. It's internal, and it's less expensive.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Kelowna?