Finance Committee on Oct. 3rd, 2016

[Chris Friesen]

We're talking about nation building. Our success in integrating immigrants and refugees will have an impact on every speaker you're talking to over the next three, four days. If immigration is our policy lever to deal with an aging population, declining birth rate, and a significant labour market shortage, how we integrate immigrants and refugee newcomers has a direct effect on the economy.

[Steven MacKinnon, Liberal, Gatineau, QC]

That's true, and as I said at the outset, before the headsets went on, it is at the heart of Canada's economic challenge.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

We'll have to stop it there, Steve. We have time for about one question from each party.

I have one myself on the Coast Guard. How many officers did you say you were short, 40 or 60?

[Allan Hughes]

It's somewhere between 40 and 60. They're falling off all the time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

The demographic is going to make that worse. Some offices were shut down or consolidated. Why did people leave? They just didn't want to transfer to a new office? This is a really serious issue, because you're talking safety on the water.

[Allan Hughes]

Absolutely. The decisions to consolidate were made by government and the Coast Guard. I'll give you a few examples. We had a centre that was fully functional and a new Coast Guard base being built in St. John's, Newfoundland. They closed that centre and moved it to Placentia, which is a smaller community with a zero vacancy rate, extremely resource-based. That one caused us to scratch our heads. Now they're building another building there to house them. A lot of people with families in St. John's decided not to relocate; they found other work in St. John's to stay with their families.

Tofino, Vancouver, Comox, none of the officers that were affected there went to Prince Rupert, for obvious reasons. Not that Prince Rupert isn't a nice place; it's just that a lot of them spent most of their careers trying to get out of there.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Allan Hughes]

I've been cautioned before to say it's a hell of a place to live, but it's challenging. Conversely, in Victoria, where a lot of those officers decided to remain, it's expensive. We closed Vancouver in 2015. The reason given by the commissioner in 2012 at the SCOFO was that it's hard to retain people in this housing market. Guess what? The housing market is the same in Victoria now as it was in Vancouver in 2012, when the decision was made. Consequently, of the 18 cohorts I worked with in Comox, 12 didn't go, for financial reasons, and we lost about 200 years of experience. Some retired. They were offered benefits under the National Joint Council and availed themselves of them. Some were fortunate enough to be in a position, financially, to retire.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

So a key question is: how do you get back up to speed in getting people into these jobs? It takes a long while to train people, give them experience. One accident would soon be a heck of a lot more expensive, I can tell you that.

[Allan Hughes]

Absolutely.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

I used to be parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Fisheries, and I looked at the movement of traffic on the west coast. When you see it over three days from a satellite photograph, pretty nearly every square foot of water is covered between there and Seattle.

How do you get people in place? What does government have to do to meet that need?

[Allan Hughes]

In the short term we have to hire more staff. We can't put through six officers on an English course. It's not sustainable.

I have looked at the departures already this year just in the centre, and I can see right now six departures within the year. Those people have to come from somewhere. We have six in the college now, and that's to just tap the surface of what we lost over the past four years.

We have to hire more, and we have to build capacity at the Canadian Coast Guard College in Sydney, with instructors. Those instructors have to be trained and experienced MCTS officers. It's a double-edged sword as regions aren't releasing officers to instruct at the college because they are short-staffed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

They need them.

Mr. Albas, then Mr. Cannings, and then Mr. Grewal. You have one question each.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Mr. Meneer, in regard to the Pacific Salmon Foundation, are you aware of the work the Okanagan Nation Alliance has been doing here in the Okanagan?

[Michael Meneer]

Yes, it's excellent work. In fact, we've been a funder in the past of some of that work.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

That was the question I was going to ask. Do some of those monies come back to you in any way? The stamp doesn't apply because they are not treaty.... Is that correct?

[Michael Meneer]

No. Once the salmon stamp comes to us we do have requirements for how we need to spend it. One of the limitations as it relates to first nations is that first nations often would like to pay for labour associated with the projects they are doing. Our current rules with DFO require that we fund volunteer projects.

That doesn't mean we can't fund first nations programs. Indeed, we have, to the tune of about $5.5 million over our history, but we could do a lot more. You just have to have a bit more flexibility with first nations groups.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Quickly, in regard to the $4 increase for the proposed one that you're making here, have you consulted with recreational fishers and different groups, and what are their thoughts?

[Michael Meneer]

We have informally, and we've had no opposition raised. Indeed, they see this as an opportunity.

One of the issues that the Sport Fishing Institute and the Sport Fishing Advisory Board raised is the need for more monitoring of our various fisheries, and these funds could be used to help with increased monitoring, and we're 100% on board with that.

We really do see ourselves as working with all stakeholder groups, and over our 30 years, we think our reputation upholds the fact that we've done that fairly well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Mr. Cannings.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

I would like to ask a quick question of Mr. Hughes. Mr. Liepert asked about the cost; you have your ask to reinstate these members and stations.

Could you comment on the economic impacts to the Canadian economy and to Canadians of not doing this? What are the costs if we don't reinstate this funding?

[Allan Hughes]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I certainly recognize the fact that one shipping accident anywhere, whether it's the Arctic, the Great Lakes, particularly the St. Lawrence Seaway, Halifax, Vancouver, the B.C. coast, could negate any savings in a very short period of time, whether it's through pollution clean-up or significant government resources to even re-establish a fishery should an accident occur.

On the Port of Vancouver alone, my last number had $80 billion of commerce going through that port each year. If, for some reason, a ship becomes stranded, for example, at First Narrows, that could shut the port down for a week.

I'm not saying it's going to happen, but we're there to help prevent it. Those are the jobs of our officers, to make sure that doesn't happen, whether it's the St. Lawrence, the Fraser River, or anywhere.

We're responsible for the safe and efficient movement of shipping traffic in Canada, and with the decrease in the number of officers, it's going to become more and more challenging to continue to deliver the levels of service we have currently.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Related to that, it was something like $5 million or $6 million that we saved, I guess, just in terms of HR costs when those cuts were made.

How much have we offset that? What are the net savings when we consider the increased costs in having to pay out people in their pensions, having to retrain? Do you have any idea of the net figure?

[Allan Hughes]

I don't have a figure for the folks who left. Some retired and left the service. Some, quite frankly, just quit and left. Ultimately, at the end of the day, for every officer we're short, we're paying a salary at time and three-quarters—1.75—to replace them because of the short staffing situation. That goes back to the 5.5 staffing factor.

I ran some quick numbers here. To bring that staffing factor up to six, it would be about $1.8 million. I can tell you that I feel very confident in saying that the overtime budget is probably close to the savings that were realized right now, until we get over that hump. We're in a 10-year process where they're going to have to hire, train, and certify these people to work in the centres across Canada. That's what happened in the last consolidation we went through as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thanks to both of you.

Mr. Grewal, you have the last question.