Finance Committee on Oct. 18th, 2016

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would also like to thank everyone on the panel today.

My first question is for the Cooper Institute. Do you agree that if someone comes to Canada to work, that he is good enough to come to Canada to work, he should be able to stay in Canada for the long term?

[Josie Baker]

As it stands, our immigration system is such that the people who are coming in through the temporary foreign worker program are not eligible to come through the federal immigration programs, so the ask is that these people coming to work are able to apply for permanent residency status in Canada, if that's something they choose to do.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

Thank you.

I have a second question. I think I heard correctly that you are proposing maybe a more progressive tax system. I don't know if I heard it correctly, but do you have a specific proposal on how we could make it more progressive? Would it be by more level taxation for individuals and corporations?

[Ann Wheatley]

Yes. We support the other groups, such as the Canadians for Tax Fairness, which is suggesting the corporate income tax should be increased and that we should be getting back the taxes that are lost in offshore accounts.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

I will turn now to the minister.

Thanks for being here.

On the health issue, can you provide us with the impact that the 3% in health transfers compared to 6%—an absolute number in dollars—will have? What is the impact and what percentage will your province and the taxpayers of Prince Edward Island have to invest to sustain the health system?

[Allen F. Roach]

Even if the cost of health care didn't rise, it was just year over year. It's $5 million a year compounded.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

So in the next budget in 2017-18, you will have to add $5 million in your own budget?

[Allen F. Roach]

Plus the $5 million, yes, and that will be compounded each year after that.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

Yes, and in each year there is an increase in costs.

[Allen F. Roach]

Additional, yes.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

Now, on the EI file, I thank you for being here. This is something we heard quite a lot about in 2012 when the changes were implemented.

What solution do you see to make sure that in every region of the country there's a fair EI system and that the system is able to recognize the fact that in some regions there's seasonal work? How can we make sure that the system is fair for everyone and make sure that seasonal workers, like those in Atlantic Canada, have a system that works for them?

[Lori MacKay]

The first suggestion we would make—and we have been saying it—is to revert back to 2012 as a starting point, because those changes were really targeted toward seasonal workers and precarious work, part-time work. That would be the starting point.

There's no question that EI is probably the most complicated system we have in the country, and that makes for administrative nightmares and a whole lot of other things. I know that this government had talked about doing a full review, and I believe that's supposed to happen in 2017, but I think the starting point should before all of the changes that have taken place since 2012.

The premium reductions that are planned are going to really tighten the purse strings on the EI fund, which has already gutted a lot of the benefits for a lot of workers. I've had a lot of conversations about EI over the last number of years, and in those conversations, this has been based on the fact that in a system where we have a lot of seasonal workers, the EI system has supported those seasonal economies.

The challenge I have with the previous federal government that made the choices to change the system the way they did was that they targeted seasonal workers without saying what is the job.... Workers want to work. There's no question in my mind workers that want to work. Provide them the jobs and they will work. They didn't even look at that. Instead, they said to target the seasonal workers and get them to be mobile. They wanted a mobile workforce. What are the social consequences for a mobile workforce? That question, we didn't ask. What are the health consequences of low-income, precarious work? What are the stressors on the health system because workers now are afraid of not making it from one season to another? That is compounded, and that's something that as government we have not looked at.

How can we make the EI system fair? Certainly, I would say, don't target certain industries. Recognize that as a country we are vast, we're diverse, and we have seasonal industries, and not not just in Atlantic Canada. There are seasonal industries throughout this entire country, including the north and in northern communities in every province. It's not just the Atlantic region's concern; it's everybody's concern. We really need to focus on the system from a worker's point of view. Every economy has to be considered, and we need to look at what are the consequences to every system that we have when workers aren't supported properly.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

Thank you.

Did you see an impact after the 2012 changes in P.E.I.? Did you see an impact whereby seasonal workers who used to work in seasonal industry decided, because of the change in the rules, to work in a year-round industry or to move elsewhere in Canada? Did you see this impact on the ground?

[Lori MacKay]

We certainly saw a lot of outward migration out west prior to the oil drop. Then, of course, all these workers came back with fewer EI benefits than their counterparts who they were working with in Alberta, because they got the five-week extension and a bunch of other changes. Our workers came back with the reduced benefits. It's number one on that. We did see a lot of outward migration.

I think some of the industries in Prince Edward Island that rely on seasonal workers can attest to the fact that a lot of their long-term employees are not coming back, so it's causing them problems with training and costing them more money. We were seeing that too. I know, for example, that as CUPE we represent support workers, and we have depleted substitute lists. That is affecting the education system in the province. My question is, what have the EI changes in the last couple of years done to, say, a school bus driver who is just there as a substitute? They probably have chosen to do something different.

I'll tell you what hasn't changed since the changes in 2012: the unemployment rate in Canada and the unemployment rate in Prince Edward Island. It did nothing to help any of that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Mr. Sorbara.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, Minister, and thank you for your welcome to this lovely province.

Just to get some numbers on health care spending in the P.E.I. budget, what percentage was health care spending in the last fiscal year?

[Allen F. Roach]

Health care was about 40%.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

At what rate has it been growing?

[Allen F. Roach]

I'd say it's been growing at about 5.5% or 5.7%.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Your comment was that the CHT covers about 25% of that spending. It's been interesting hearing these things for the second day now. It's my first time out on the east coast. We hear about the demographic challenges when we're back in Ottawa, but being here, it has really hit home what the demographic challenges are that the provinces face.

What more could be done to encourage investment migration here? I'm not just talking about people retiring here, which is lovely. They come out here, and that's great and everything. On investment in migration here in Atlantic Canada—and this is a general question, structurally and long term—what one, or two, or three things can we partner on to ensure that there's a bright future for all of Atlantic Canada?

[Allen F. Roach]

Certainly, in Prince Edward Island, we've done a phenomenal amount of work to ensure that our immigration numbers are high, as high as we can get them. Prince Edward Island is the leader in Atlantic Canada on immigration. We remain one of the leaders in the country.

One of the challenges—and I have to go back to the previous 18 months—is that some of the rules around the people who want to immigrate, who want to come here, who want to be part of the Prince Edward Island culture, need to be reviewed in order to allow that to happen. It doesn't need to be as difficult as it is at times.

With respect to some of our temporary foreign workers, the changes that came in several years ago caused difficulties in our industries, particularly our agriculture and fisheries industries. Some of the new rules put an incredible hardship on the companies employing these temporary foreign workers.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

If anybody else wants to come in on these, raise your hand and we'll acknowledge you. Go ahead, Francesco.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

I'll ask this question, and maybe Josie or someone else will want to jump in.

I don't want to use the words, “temporary foreign workers”, but I want to say something about “workers”, especially with regard to the seasonal industries here in P.E.I. I've always viewed immigration as a nation building exercise, with the caveat that you will need some people to come into a country, work for a temporary period, and then leave, whether they are working for a conglomerate or a small business and have specialized skills.

For the most part, I would view immigration as nation building. You welcome somebody in, and you want them to stay and build a future and a family. That's what my family did. This afternoon, I hope to go and visit Pier 21 when we arrive in Halifax, where my parents, my grandparents, and my parents' siblings, the children, came in.

On the need for migrant workers here, and the skilled labour force, if you had to rate it on a scale of one to ten for P.E.I., where you would see it? Ten would be the optimal and one would be the really not optimal. We've had some large changes. TFW went from being very easy to have folks come in to very difficult. The pendulum, I hope, is going back to some sort of balance. I just wanted to put that out there.

[Allen F. Roach]

I certainly think we have a very diversified economy here. We range from IT to pharmaceutical, bioscience, marine technologies, and aerospace. It's a very broad and diverse economy for such a small jurisdiction, and we certainly need a skilled labour force for a lot of those jobs.

A lot of where that diversity comes from, in pharmaceuticals, etc., certainly needs a skill set, and those industries are growing. That's what has enabled Prince Edward Island to show, for a small jurisdiction, a strong economy. We don't see the rises you see in Alberta, in oil-producing provinces, but we don't see the lows either. We've been fortunate enough in our economy to have a steady economy, steady and slow. We always continue to move, but we do need the skill sets for those types of jobs, and we want those people to stay here through the immigration process.

In some of our other industries, within our tourism industry, our processing plants and fisheries, and our agriculture industries, there is a requirement there. We need workers that we necessarily don't need all year round, but we do need to have a program that will allow those temporary foreign workers to come in as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Go ahead, Josie.