Finance Committee on Nov. 15th, 2016

[Hassan Yussuff]

In regard to whether this was ever anticipated or discussed during the entire period of the enhancement, it was not. I can say that without any hesitation, and it will not jeopardize the agreement that was reached, because it was clear that anything that was currently in the CPP that was protected and provided for was never intended to be taken away, either from women or from those in the disability dropout period.

I do believe, by the way—and obviously the finance officials aren't here, so I can't speak for them—that they made a mistake in the drafting of the legislation, and they should own up to it and fix it. It's as simple as that. It will not jeopardize the agreement we reached with the provinces across the country.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Okay. Does anyone else have anything to add? We'll have to check that out.

Thank you for that information.

Mr. Grewal, you have five minutes.

[Raj Grewal, Liberal, Brampton East, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for coming here today.

The question really is, what drove the expansion of the CPP? If you look at a bunch of research that has been done, the single biggest factor that led to the expansion of the CPP is the dire state of the traditional company pensions.

The statistics are as follows. In 1971, about 48% of men were covered by defined benefit plans, according to StatsCan. By 2011, that portion had already fallen to half, to 25%, and it has been declining every year since. There's actually a legitimate concern and that's why CPP was expanded. This was a commitment made in our campaign and we're happy to deliver on it.

Something should be said to the fact of how CPP is actually expanded. You have to get seven provinces that represent two-thirds of the Canadian population to agree to something. Anybody who has lived in this country knows that is not an easy feat, so congratulations to our government. We deserve a pat on the back.

More seriously, in regard to the concerns amongst small businesses, Ms. Moreau, you speak about the membership of the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, and you have these statistics. My background is that I'm a finance guy. I always like the numbers, but the devil is in the details.

You have 109,000 members, right? Did all 109,000 members receive your survey?

[Monique Moreau]

Correct. In the vast majority of these, in the data I have before you, we contracted out Ipsos Reid to do a poll, so the numbers are smaller than you would normally see in the response rates for our own surveys.

[Raj Grewal, Liberal, Brampton East, ON]

That's extremely telling of the responses. One of the charts you have here, the business barometer index and GDP, was responded to by 651 people, which represents 0.5% of your entire membership.

[Monique Moreau]

If I can intervene, that's because the poll is monthly, and we don't poll our entire membership every month. We try to poll only 10,000 per month so that they are not getting—

[Raj Grewal, Liberal, Brampton East, ON]

Even then, 651 responses from 10,000 businesses is not even a drop in the bucket. To say these people represent the voice of Canadian small businesses, in my humble opinion, is a bit misleading.

[Monique Moreau]

I'll only say that this piece of research is the only research that gets at the non-stock-market economy. It's used by the Bank of Canada. It's used by Bloomberg. It's a very well-respected piece of research that our organization has developed over the last 15 years.

[Raj Grewal, Liberal, Brampton East, ON]

The story isn't told, then. You're sitting here advocating that small businesses are against CPP expansion.

[Monique Moreau]

Correct. They're against the expansion. They support CPP.

[Raj Grewal, Liberal, Brampton East, ON]

You're saying your organization has that mandate based on these survey results.

[Monique Moreau]

Yes, that's how we get our mandate on all issues.

[Raj Grewal, Liberal, Brampton East, ON]

Then I would seriously look at the methodology on how you get your mandate, because that does not reflect the majority of businesses that operate in Canada.

I represent one of the fastest-growing areas in this country. A lot, including my family, own a lot of small businesses. They recognize the need for an expanded CPP because of the benefit to their workers.

It's not always a bottom-line approach. I refuse to believe that all small businesses focus only on the bottom line. If they have employees who are protected by an enhanced CPP, that makes their employees work harder for them because they don't have these concerns of saving for retirement. They know their employer is looking after them and their government is looking after them.

The CPP is an extremely well-managed pension fund.

[Monique Moreau]

We agree.

[Raj Grewal, Liberal, Brampton East, ON]

It does better than competitors around the world, and more importantly, it's well-diversified. I believe it's beyond insolvent for some 100 years.

[Monique Moreau]

It's 75 years.

[Raj Grewal, Liberal, Brampton East, ON]

The math of insolvency doesn't make any sense. I want to hear your comment on the fact that, in my opinion, this does not represent the voice of small businesses in Canada. If you go around and talk to small businesses, the majority of them are supportive because they recognize that if their employees are taken of, it benefits their bottom line in the long run.

[Monique Moreau]

I hear what you're saying. I don't pretend that all small business owners feel that way. That's why you don't have 100% on all the different data points that we have. There are business owners who disagree and believe the CPP should be expanded. However, as an organization for the last 45 years we've always taken the majority voice. We're a very democratic organization in that perspective. It's one member, one vote. We do poll our members regularly on a variety of issues.

In terms of—

[Raj Grewal, Liberal, Brampton East, ON]

I would highly encourage your entire organization to make sure they go out and get more responses from their membership, because this is not telling. To rely on these results to say that the 651 respondents represent 109,000 businesses, plus or minus 2%, in my humble opinion, does not carry weight.

[Monique Moreau]

I hear you. I have to say that's the first time we have received feedback on the business barometer that's.... I will speak with our chief economist, because as I mentioned, it has been a very respected tool. The Governor of the Bank of Canada, who we are meeting with next Monday, uses it as the only measure of the non-stock-market economy, so we've taken his seal of approval as a sign that this is good research, likewise with Bloomberg Canada.

[Raj Grewal, Liberal, Brampton East, ON]

I would say the same thing to the Governor of the Bank of Canada if he were here.

[Monique Moreau]

All right.

[Raj Grewal, Liberal, Brampton East, ON]

At the end of the day, it doesn't make—

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

We'll have to cut it there.

We'll go to Ms. O'Connell, and then to Mr. Duvall.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you all for coming.

Following up on the slides here from CFIB, which Mr. Grewal was just talking about, you mentioned the survey. In this one you had a few more responses. You had 2,003 responses. It is entitled “Employed Canadians oppose a CPP hike if it means a wage freeze or cut”. Did you ever poll businesses or employees on if they would support a CPP hike or retire in poverty? Which would they prefer?