Evidence of meeting #27 for Finance in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was debt.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Yves Giroux  Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
Xiaoyi Yan  Director, Budgetary Analysis, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
Sylvain Ricard  Interim Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
Andrew Hayes  Deputy Auditor General and Interim Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

5:10 p.m.

Sylvain Ricard Interim Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Mr. Chair, thank you for inviting us to discuss the role of the Auditor General in examining the government’s response to the COVID-19 pandemic.

With me today is Andrew Hayes, Deputy Auditor General and Interim Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development.

We appreciate the opportunity to be here today, and I would like to thank members of Parliament, their staff, and all the staff of the House administration who have been working to ensure that standing committees can continue to operate.

In these challenging times, I want to acknowledge the commitment and engagement of Canadians as they deal with this pandemic, including members of the federal public service and my office’s staff.

The Office of the Auditor General of Canada has received three requests for audits from the House of Commons since Parliament resumed in January. We have informed the Speaker of the House that we will do these three audits

First, on January 29, the House of Commons adopted a motion calling on my office to conduct an audit of the government’s investing in Canada plan and to report our findings no later than one year following the adoption of the motion.

Then, on March 13, an order made by the House of Commons called on my office to conduct an audit of special warrants that could be issued under the Financial Administration Act and to report our findings no later than June 1, 2021. We understand that no special warrants have been issued to date.

Lastly, on April 11, the House of Commons adopted a motion requesting that we conduct an audit of the COVID-19 emergency response taken by the government and report our findings no later than June 1, 2021.

On April 28, we informed the Speaker of the House that we are prioritizing COVID-19 audit work and the audit of the investing in Canada plan. We also said that we will submit our findings to Parliament as soon as we can complete the audit work.

With respect to the COVID-19 audit, we have analyzed the specific elements of the audit that the House of Commons requested, including the spending undertaken pursuant to the Public Health Events of National Concern Payments Act and the exercise of the provisions of the Financial Administration Act and the Borrowing Authority Act. The leaders of our performance audit and financial audit practices have been working together to identify the areas that should be covered in our COVID-19 audit work.

Of course, we have been monitoring the initiatives that the government has been introducing to respond to the pandemic. As part of our planning work, we have been analyzing spending related to protecting health and safety, support to individuals and businesses, and other liquidity support and capital relief.

We also believe that it is important to consider elements of emergency preparedness and early response actions. This may allow us to identify good practices and areas for improvement in case there is a future wave to this pandemic or to be ready for a future pandemic that may arise.

We welcome any input that the committee may have on areas we could examine as part of our COVID-19 audit work.

Since the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic, we have recognized that many departments and agencies are on the front line and they are devoting a tremendous amount of time and resources in responding to the pandemic. We are mindful of their operational realities, and we want to make sure that our audit work will not divert their attention away from the support and services they need to provide to Canadians. We will exercise judgment and will strive to be as accommodating as possible when we ask for interviews and documents that are needed for our audit. We have started to engage with senior public servants to explore ways to conduct our audit work while minimizing the impact on the operations of departments and agencies. We are also mindful of the challenges that come with physical distancing measures.

Going back to the April 11 order, I will make a few comments about my office's resources. The order called on the government to take measures that are necessary to ensure my office has sufficient resources to conduct the work we have been asked by the House of Commons to do, including the COVID-19 audit and the audit of the investing in Canada plan.

As members may know, our office has faced resourcing pressures in recent years. In 2017, the former auditor general, Michael Ferguson, sought permanent additional funding through the government's budget process. We received some of the funding that we requested in the 2018 federal budget. We continued to pursue additional resources in the 2019 budget cycle but did not get any new funding at that time. When we appeared before the Standing Committee on Public Accounts in May and June 2019, and again in February 2020, we told the committee that our limited resources meant we had no choice but to decrease the number of performance audits that we conduct. Ten years ago, we were completing about 27 performance audits every year. With our current resources, we expect to be able to deliver 14 performance audits each year.

Given the nature and extent of the work we believe is required to conduct the audits of the investing in Canada plan and the COVID-19 response, and in light of our limited resources, we had to revisit the timing for completing and reporting on our current and future performance audit work. On that basis, we informed the Speaker of the House that we have had to delay all other performance audit work that is not related to the motions adopted by the House of Commons.

Let me be clear: Decisions to postpone planned audit work are difficult to make. The topics we select for our audits are important to parliamentarians and Canadians. Given our limited resources, we did not have the capacity to salvage some of the important audit work that we have now had to postpone. We don't know when we will be able to get to that work.

We are ready to answer any questions that the committee may have.

Thank you.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you very much, Mr. Ricard.

We will go to the first round of six-minute questions, starting with Mr. Poilievre and then on to Ms. Dzerowicz.

Pierre.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Mr. Auditor General, are you telling us that you've had to delay some of your audits because the government has not given you enough resources to conduct them?

5:20 p.m.

Interim Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Sylvain Ricard

As I mentioned in my opening statement, back in 2017, the former auditor general, Mr. Ferguson, made a request for $21 million at the time. That was to deal with additional mandates that we had to conduct, more complex environments and a need to make significant investments in our technology to have the tools to do that analysis in the new reality out there—

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

I know. We're just very short on time, sir.

I'm asking, though, based on your description in your opening statement, do you have enough money to perform the audits you have before you?

5:20 p.m.

Interim Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Sylvain Ricard

To be sufficiently funded, we said to the public accounts committee that we needed $10.8 million.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

What do you have now?

5:20 p.m.

Interim Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Sylvain Ricard

Again, out of that $10 million, we got nothing.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Nothing.

5:20 p.m.

Interim Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Sylvain Ricard

We got $7 million in 2018, and nothing out of the $10.8 million that we asked for in the 2019 budget.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

This is a government that's prepared to send billions of dollars around the world to all kinds of causes, but for some reason, the one thing it doesn't want to fund is a sufficient auditor to hold its spending accountable. At a time when we're doing record spending—this government is going to run a quarter-trillion-dollar deficit—and we don't have a properly funded auditor to look into that spending.

I want to turn my attention to the infrastructure program. The government claims it's spending $180 billion on infrastructure, but the Parliamentary Budget Officer points out that they have no plan for how to spend that money. That's why the Conservatives put forward a successfully passed motion that you would audit that plan to find out where all the money is going. Are you going to make sure that your report identifies a list of projects that add up to the total number of infrastructure dollars the government claims to have spent in each year?

5:20 p.m.

Interim Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Sylvain Ricard

Sorry, Mr. Poilievre, I'm not sure I heard.... Are you referring to the COVID audit or the infrastructure audit?

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

It's the infrastructure.

5:20 p.m.

Interim Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Sylvain Ricard

That is something that obviously we need to do. When we audit that program, we're going to do it at two levels: the overall management of it, the overall coordination of it, the full big picture, and then a second layer that will address more audit-specific elements or components.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

When I asked the Parliamentary Budget Officer if he could identify all of the projects that add up to the total the government claims to have spent on infrastructure, he said there is no list of projects that could do that. In other words, we don't know where some of the money has gone. It's sprinkled about in dozens of different departments, and no one can actually attach those dollars to projects and make the two match. I hope you will ask them for a full list of projects with their full costs, and the total should be the sum of the parts.

On the issue of the COVID-19 spending, do you have enough financial resources to audit the more than $150 billion in expenditures that this government is pursuing, purportedly in response to COVID-19?

5:25 p.m.

Interim Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Sylvain Ricard

As I said earlier, we have clearly had challenges with limited resources for years. We're behind, and there's nothing we can do about fixing the investment we should have made over the last few years. We will have to make difficult choices. That is reflected in every area of our office, even our financial statement audit these days. The COVID situation simply demonstrated—times 10 if I can say it that way—the struggle we were living. We had no leeway, no way to adapt to additional requests from the House, no way to invest in technology and get our staff the tools they need.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Right.

5:25 p.m.

Interim Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Sylvain Ricard

The current situation just amplified the challenges we've been facing for years.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

To top it off, the government has kept you on an interim basis for months now, which is a typical governmental tactic used to ensure that they can fire you as soon as you do something they don't like. An interim position means they can get rid of you whenever they choose, and that leaves you in a position where you're dependent on them. The Auditor General's position is supposed to be a fixed term of 10 years so that the AG can feel totally independent in the examination and reporting he or she does on government activities.

Do you have any comment on why the government would have kept you in a so-called interim position for so long?

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

I don't know if that really relates to the COVID-19 study that we're doing, Pierre.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Wayne, let him answer the question. Stop covering it up. Stop covering it up. Let him answer the question.

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

I'm not trying to cover it up, but—

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Let him answer the question, then.

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

—if Mr. Ricard wants to answer the question.... I think that's going a little overboard.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Leave that to the people to decide.