Finance Committee on May 14th, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

I officially call this meeting to order. Welcome to meeting number 28 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Finance. Pursuant to the order of reference of Tuesday, March 24, the committee is meeting on the government's response to the COVID-19 pandemic.

Today's meeting is taking place by video conference and the proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website.

I just want to point out, on a technicality, that if you're speaking in English, you should select English at the bottom of the screen. If you're speaking in French, select French. It's easier for the interpreters that way.

With that, then, I will welcome the minister and the witnesses. I'll not go through the list of witnesses, but with the minister, we have witnesses from the Canada Revenue Agency, the Department of Finance and the Department of Employment and Social Development.

Mr. Minister, we certainly welcome you. We know you have an opening statement, but I do want to say in beginning, thank you for the fourth report, the bi-weekly reports of parts 3, 8, and 18 of Bill C-13, related to the COVID-19 emergency response. We appreciate that.

Also, a special thank you to the people who prepare that report, the people who work in the backrooms who we never see, who do a lot of work for Canadians. You can give them our thanks and let them know that we appreciate what they're doing for Canadians and what they're doing in preparing the reports for us at the finance committee.

Certainly, Sean and I thank you for today's announcement as well, a welcome announcement on the fisheries side.

Minister, we welcome you. The floor is yours.

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll begin by thanking the members of the committee for their continuing work during these extremely challenging times, and thank you for the invitation to have me speak today at the committee.

As we all know, COVID-19 continues to pose significant risks to people's health, their way of life, and the economy as a whole.

Since the beginning of March, the measures implemented as part of Canada's COVID-19 economic response plan have been supporting Canadian workers grappling with this unprecedented crisis.

This whole-of-economy plan promotes economic stability and protects jobs. Our government's rapid, comprehensive response is providing over $150 billion in direct support to Canadians, to soften the economic impact of this crisis. This support will also help our economy recover once the crisis ends.

Ours is one of the most comprehensive plans in the G7. We've rolled out measures for workers and businesses across all economic sectors, for employers of all sizes. We're helping students who are trying to build careers, and parents trying to juggle the demands of the COVID crisis on their professional and family lives.

We've worked with provinces, territories and indigenous leaders. We're continuing to make sure that no one is left behind. The Canada emergency response benefit, which provides temporary income support to workers who've stopped working, is important. More than 7.8 million Canadians have applied for the CERB as of May 10.

We know that the pandemic has brought extra costs into the lives of seniors too and that they need some support as well. As one of our first measures, we announced a GST credit top-up that was delivered in April, which provided financial support to low- and modest-income Canadians, including over four million seniors. Eligible seniors received an average of $375 for single seniors and $510 for senior couples.

This week, the Prime Minister announced additional financial support to help our seniors. Canadians who receive the old age security pension will automatically get a tax-free payment of $300.

Those who receive the guaranteed income supplement will get an additional $200, tax free. These payments will go to support seniors. There are currently 6.7 million seniors who are eligible for the OAS pension and 2.2 million who are eligible for the GIS.

We've also invested in community support initiatives that help seniors. We've given $9 million to United Way Canada to provide practical services, such as delivering groceries and medications.

We also announced an investment of $20 million in the new horizons for seniors program, which helps reduce isolation and provides social support for seniors. This support is now more critical than ever before. We've also announced virtual care in mental health tools for all Canadians through a new online portal called “Wellness Together Canada”.

In addition to supporting individual Canadians, we've provided significant support to Canadian businesses since the beginning of the crisis. We've implemented support for businesses across Canada that aren't eligible for other support measures, through the new regional relief and recovery fund. This new fund devotes nearly $962 million to help more businesses and organizations that are key to local economies, including rural economies.

Last week, we announced an investment of more than $252 million to support farmers, food businesses and food processors who make sure our grocery stores are stocked and are keeping Canadians fed. This complements our action in March to enable Farm Credit Canada to provide an additional $5 billion in lending to producers, agribusinesses and food processors. The government also intends to propose an additional $200 million in borrowing capacity for the dairy sector in particular.

This past Monday, we announced the expansion of the business credit availability program to mid-sized companies from across the economy with larger financing needs. In addition, we announced the large employer emergency financing facility to provide bridge financing to Canada's largest employers to help them get through this pandemic. These businesses employ millions of Canadians and we need them to stay strong. We'll protect workers by ensuring that companies that receive support through LEEFF respect any and all collective bargaining agreements, including pensions. We'll protect taxpayers by putting in place strict limits on executive pay, share buybacks and dividends.

We want to make sure this support is truly going to companies that contribute to Canada's economic well-being by making significant investments in this country. In considering a company's eligibility, we assess its international organizational structure and financing arrangements, as well as its employment, tax and economic activity in Canada. Recipient companies will be required to commit to certain objectives with regard to the disclosure of risks related to climate change and environmental sustainability.

Companies will not be able to get this financing if they've been convicted of tax evasion.

The government also announced a temporary top-up to the salaries of low-income essential workers that the provinces and territories have deemed essential in the fight against COVID-19. All provinces and territories have confirmed, or are in the process of confirming, plans to cost-share wage top-ups for their essential workers. The Government of Canada will provide up to $3 billion to support this wage increase.

Since the beginning of this crisis, we've been focused on providing Canadians and Canadian businesses with the support they need to get through this crisis. We'll do whatever it takes. We'll get through these challenging times together.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Minister, thank you very much for those remarks and that overview of where we're at.

We'll start with the six-minute round. I'll give you the speaking order of that round.

We'll start with Mr. Poilievre, Mr. Fragiskatos, Mr. Ste-Marie and Mr. Julian. In the second round, we'll be back to Mr. Poilievre, and then Ms. Dzerowicz.

Pierre, the floor is yours.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Minister, is it possible that Canada will lose its AAA debt rating this year, yes or no?

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

The economic challenge we're facing obviously is significant and the investments we are making are significant. We believe those are in the best interests of the economy and will keep our economy strong.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Is it possible that we'll lose our AAA rating?

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Well, as I said, we're making significant investments to support the strength of our economy. The rating agency looks at the strength of the economy. We believe making those investments will support a strong economy as we come out of this.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

For the last time, it is possible we will lose our AAA debt rating, yes or no? Just a yes or no will do.

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

As you may know, I'm not the debt-rating agency. What I can tell you is we are making investments to make sure our economy is strong. That is the fundamental determinant of how successful we are as a country.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

All right, so no answer to that question.

Do you have an estimate for what the deficit will be this year?

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

We have been providing, as you know, reports through to this committee. The report you received most recently is giving you a comprehensive understanding of the investments we are making.

As we have the information we—

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Yes or no: do you have a deficit update for us? Is it yes or no?

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, is there an approach—

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Yes, answer the question. That's the right approach. Answer the question.

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

— which is one—

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

That's the right approach, Minister. Answer the question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Just hold on. We'll not take away your time.

Go ahead, what were you asking, Mr. Minister?

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

My question is whether you will enforce an approach where there's a question and then there's a response.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Yes, they will have to be relatively the same time, as the Speaker does in the House.

You can answer as you so decide, and the member can question as he or she so decides. It has to be relatively the same time for the question and the answer, according to the rules that the Speaker has been applying in the House.

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Go ahead, Mr. Poilievre.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

All right, so the minister doesn't have an answer to that question either.

Mr. Chair, yesterday the minister wrongly suggested that the Harper government had cut the Auditor General's budget. In fact, the previous Auditor General voluntarily reduced his budget as part of his efforts to help reduce the deficit in that time. He said he could meet all of his auditing requirements with the budget he had.

By contrast, today's Auditor General has said the opposite, that he doesn't have enough money to do the work before him.

Will the minister—yes or no, yes or no—provide the Auditor General with the funds he has asked for so that his office, and the office of his soon-to-be successor, can properly audit all the spending of the Government of Canada?

Again, a simple yes or no will do.

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

I think, Mr. Chair, the response will be roughly the same amount of time as the question.

In fact, what I identified yesterday was the actual spending on the Auditor General in the last full fiscal year in which the previous Harper government was in office, which was—

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Just yes or no.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

The minister has the floor, Pierre.

Go ahead, Minister.