Evidence of meeting #29 for Finance in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was need.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Evan Siddall  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation
Romy Bowers  Senior Vice-President, Client Solutions, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation
Janet Wardle  Chair of COVID-19 Committee, Aerospace Industries Association of Canada
Chris Bloomer  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Energy Pipeline Association
Cathy Jo Noble  Executive Director, Canadian Parks and Recreation Association
Mike Roma  Incoming President, Canadian Parks and Recreation Association
Denise Allen  President and Chief Executive Officer, Food Processors of Canada
Christopher Sheppard-Buote  President, National Association of Friendship Centres
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. David Gagnon
Edward Greenspon  President and Chief Executive Officer, Public Policy Forum
Peter Dinsdale  President and Chief Executive Officer, YMCA Canada
Jocelyn Formsma  Executive Director, National Association of Friendship Centres

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Welcome to meeting number 29 of the House of Commons' Standing Committee on Finance. Pursuant to the order of reference on Tuesday, March 24, the committee is meeting on the government's response to the COVID-19 pandemic.

I will remind everyone that this is being put onto ParlVU, and I will remind members to use the interpretation button at the bottom of the screen for the language they're speaking in. It comes through that way. Speak as slowly and clearly as you can for the benefit of our translators.

We're meeting this afternoon on panel one with the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation. We have Mr. Siddall, president and CEO; and Ms. Romy Bowers, senior vice-president, client solutions.

I see, Mr. President, that you have speaking notes, so go ahead; the floor is yours. We'll then go to rounds of questions from there.

Seeing as there is only one witness on this panel, I'll remind members of the speaking order for the first four. It will be Mr. Poilievre, Mr. Fraser, Mr. Ste-Marie and Mr. Julian.

The floor is yours, Mr. President.

3:30 p.m.

Evan Siddall President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to Romy Bowers, my colleague, for joining me.

Thank you, all, for this opportunity to update the committee on how CMHC is helping to stabilize Canada’s financial system and support the economic well-being of households and small businesses during the COVID-19 pandemic. My appearance before you today comes without a haircut. Sorry about that, but I did shave. It is also timely in informing you about new measures that we are contemplating to promote housing affordability and to reduce risks to CMHC and to our economy.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

You're coming through in both languages. Make sure you're on the French one because when you're not on the right one, both languages come through at the same level.

3:30 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation

Evan Siddall

I'll start again.

Early in the crisis, in co-ordinated action with the Bank of Canada and the Department of Finance, we relaunched the insured mortgage purchase program. This tool helps ensure that banks have access to reliable term funding so they can continue their lending activities and housing markets remain functional.

Under the current revised program, we stand ready to purchase up to $150 billion of insured mortgages. We are also prepared to expand the issuance of conventional securitization programs, as needed.

In addition, we acted quickly to help Canadians who are having difficulty paying their mortgages or rent due to income loss because of COVID-19. In co-ordination with private mortgage insurers, we are offering temporary deferral of mortgage payments for up to six months. We estimate that 12% of mortgage holders have elected to defer payments so far, and that figure could reach nearly 20% by September.

The same mortgage deferral relief is available to our multi-unit clients in order to facilitate rent relief for their lower-income tenants. And we have taken steps to ensure that non-profit and co-operative housing providers continue to receive federal rent subsidies for low-income tenants, even if their current agreements with us have expired. In both cases, we have insisted that recipients of federal support refrain from evictions during the crisis.

More recently, the Prime Minister announced that CMHC will administer the Canada emergency commercial rent assistance for small businesses. The program will lower rent by 75% for small businesses affected by COVID-19. While the program is not housing related, we are pleased to use our real estate expertise to help struggling entrepreneurs.

However, as the committee is no doubt aware, almost everything we have done in response to the crisis involves borrowing. Just as governments are taking on more debt to finance the COVID-19 response, mortgage deferrals are adding to already historic levels of household indebtedness, and I have provided you with some slides on that. Canadians are amongst world leaders in household debt, as the committee knows. Pre-COVID, the ratio of gross debt to GDP for Canada was about 99% due in part to increased borrowing but even more so to projected declines in GDP. We estimate it will increase to about 115% in the second quarter of this year and reach 130% in the third quarter before declining. These ratios, I note, are well in excess of the 80% threshold above which the Bank for International Settlements has demonstrated that national debt intensifies the drag on GDP growth. Looking at debt multiples of disposable income—a number people are more familiar with—we see that this measure will climb from 176% in late 2019 to well over 200% through 2021. Moreover, CMHC is now forecasting a decline in average house prices in Canada of 9% to 18% in the coming 12 months.

The resulting combination of higher mortgage debt, declining house prices and increased unemployment is cause for concern for Canada's longer-term financial stability. Another slide I gave you quotes Hyman Minsky, who said that debt causes fragility.

A team, therefore, is at work within CMHC to help manage a growing “debt deferral cliff,” as we call it, that looms this fall when some unemployed people will have to start paying their mortgages again—that's assuming some economic recovery. As many as one-fifth of all mortgages could be in arrears if our economy has not recovered sufficiently.

We feel that we need to avoid exposing young people, and through CMHC, Canadian taxpayers, to the amplified losses that result from falling house prices. Unless we act, a first-time homebuyer purchasing a $300,000 home with a 5% down payment stands to lose over $45,000 on their $15,000 investment if prices fall just 10%, which we are forecasting. In comparison, a 10% down payment offers more of a cushion against possible losses.

If there is an insurance claim, and there will be more, CMHC will be called upon to cover these losses. We're therefore evaluating whether we should change our underwriting policies in light of developing market conditions.

Our support for home ownership cannot be unlimited. It's like blood pressure: you can have too much, but you need some. We've found that housing demand is far easier to stimulate than supply, and the result, as we've seen, is Economics 101: ever-increasing prices. If housing affordability is our aim, as surely it must be, then there has to be a limit to the demand we help to create, especially when supply isn't keeping up.

People believe owning a home is essential for retirement savings. Indeed, as shown in the study on which I've given you a chart, most of the increase in the shared wealth over the last 20 years in western countries has been in housing. The average Canadian homeowner in the last 20 years has had a tax-free gain, on average, of $340,000 in the value of their home. That sounds great until you add in the fact that $300,000 of that gain has been created by increased borrowing. These house prices and debt levels are increasingly out of reach for young people. In fact, home ownership tends to be lower in countries with higher incomes.

In addition to restraining our underwriting practices to limit excessive borrowing, we at CMHC must also take decisive, urgent action to accelerate the supply of rental housing. We have taken steps to do so in funding under the national housing strategy, which is very much focused on creating more affordable rental housing for Canadians. The federal government is contributing billions of dollars to housing, along with provinces and territories. Municipalities can continue to help by accelerating their approvals, contributing land and/or waiving fees and taxes to support the development of affordable housing, as well as revising their property tax regimes through a lens of impacts on housing affordability.

I'll wrap up by saying that, at CMHC, along with our 2,000 colleagues, Romy and I remain fully committed to our aspiration that by 2030 everyone in Canada will have a home that they can afford and that meets their needs. If anything, COVID-19 has brought the value of stable shelter into sharp relief, strengthening our resolve.

Thank you. I'd be happy to answer any of your questions, and Romy will join me for the harder ones.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you very much.

Some very interesting points were raised in those remarks.

We'll start a six-minute round with Mr. Poilievre.

Pierre, the floor is yours.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Mr. Chair, interesting points? It's bloody terrifying.

In fact, Mr. Siddall, the reason you were cut off is that the overload of terrifying data you were pouring into your microphone shut the system down.

If I heard you right, you're saying that, within a year, the household debt-to-GDP ratio could reach 200%. Did I hear that right?

3:40 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation

Evan Siddall

Mr. Poilievre, you did. In fact, we think it could be more.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

That is astonishing. We would have twice as much household debt than we have economic output in the country, and that's on top of corporate debt and governmental debt.

Do you have any idea what will be the total public and private debt-to-GDP ratio by the end of next year for the Canadian economy?

3:40 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation

Evan Siddall

I do not.

The number I quoted you was debt to disposable income, which is not income. It comes after necessities.

A number that's often quoted is 176%, as of the last quarter of 2019. That number will go up to approaching 230% in the third quarter, depending on a range of economic forecasts, but the one that we're using.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

That's as a share of disposable household income.

3:40 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation

Evan Siddall

As a multiple, yes.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Then you had one that was a multiple of GDP. Can you run through that again?

3:40 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation

Evan Siddall

That's right. That number was 99% at the end of last year and, if I remember correctly, it got to 117% in the second quarter—I say “above 115%” in my remarks—and it could be 130% by the third quarter.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Wow, and you say that the Bank for International Settlements suggests that anything over 80% is a drag on economic growth.

3:40 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation

Evan Siddall

Yes, 80%. It contributes to the drag, and the reason for that, if I may be precise and not ramble, is that you're effectively converting future consumption into debt service payments. As a result, the economy suffers.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Right, I understand that.

You said there could be a 9% to 18% drop in housing prices. The debt that Canadians hold is collateralized against housing. If Canadians default on their homes after their housing prices have dropped, there will be a default loss, and it is your job to cover that loss as the primary mortgage insurer in this country. As of the end of 2019, your book was at $493 billion, almost a half a trillion dollars. How much could CMHC and thus taxpayers stand to lose this year as a result of mortgage default loss?

3:45 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation

Evan Siddall

We actually don't expect to absorb our capital. We have a range of stress-testing scenarios that we run, as you will recall, and based on current forecasts, we have sufficient capital on hand. We had a $2-billion dividend that we were scheduled to pay to the Government of Canada. We have decided to withhold that liquidity in order to cover claims.

Amazingly, notwithstanding these numbers, they are forecasted to recover. Even when they're under water, Canadians do a very good job of paying their mortgages, so our loss forecasts are not extreme.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

What are they?

3:45 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation

Evan Siddall

I will look them up and return that. I don't have it in front of me.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

How many Canadians do you expect will default on their mortgage in this calendar year?

3:45 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation

Evan Siddall

I will try and get you that number too.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

All right.

You have vastly expanded your operation in response to the COVID crisis. You have, along with the government, instituted an insured mortgage purchase program and expanded the Canada mortgage bond. The Bank of Canada is now getting involved in all of this. Do you worry that the degree of government involvement, government insurance and government purchases of existing mortgages could lead to distortions in the marketplace where risk is separated from reward and put on the backs of taxpayers rather than on the backs of those who profit from it?

3:45 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation

Evan Siddall

As far as we can tell, banks don't adjudicate insured mortgages differently from uninsured mortgages.

I am extremely worried about it for a short period of time, but this is a regime that's served us well in Canada, and it means that we have the CMHC to absorb losses like this and help people stay in their homes. As I said, we think deferrals could get up to 20%. Right now, 12% of mortgages are in deferral either through support through us and the private mortgage insurers or through banks directly, and that's a form of resilience, I would suggest to you.

May I answer your previous question?

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Please.

3:45 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation

Evan Siddall

Our moderate stress test would suggest that we could have claim losses of up to $9 billion over time as a result of these events.