Finance Committee on May 28th, 2020

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

I am sure that if you go to the ministry of finance and go up to the dusty attic, somewhere in those boxes the answer to that question can be found. I think it's a very relevant question, with the historically low interest rates, how it is structured. Over the next few months it will be an important one. So I add my voice to that of Mr. Poilievre to say that getting more precision around that would be helpful.

Second, Mr. Ste-Marie asked about the SUB, and I can only stress that this is a serious issue. There seems to have been some movement around the SUB. This is a relatively easy fix. We have folks both from Employment and Social Development and the Department of Finance. What is the holdup to fixing something that the employer is actually paying for?

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Who's taking it?

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

I ask both ministries.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Okay, Mr. Ram for one, and then somebody else can come in.

[Elisha Ram]

Thank you for the question.

The response is relatively similar to my response to the previous question. The Canada emergency response benefit is, by its very design and nature, a very simplified form of providing income support. There was simply no way to import all the rules and conditions that exist under the employment insurance system, and to do it in a way that would allow us to deliver the benefit to a very large number of claimants in the period of time that was required.

The supplementary unemployment plan, an element of the employment insurance system, is one such element. We simply have not been able to bring it into the CERB, given its simplified structure.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Are you working on it? Are you working on provisions to integrate?

[Elisha Ram]

We continue to study the issue. However, at this stage those provisions remain unavailable to people who are receiving the CERB.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Did anybody from Employment and Social Development want to come in as well?

Ms. McDonald.

[Suzy McDonald, Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Federal-Provincial Relations and Social Policy Branch, Department of Finance]

I think you meant Finance.

I don't think we have much to add to what my colleague has said. He's answered it quite well.

The only thing I would say is that, of course, outside of the SUB, an employer can provide a top-up of up to $1,000 for a four-week period without impacting the CERB.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Okay.

My next question is to Finance, around the commercial rent relief program.

Gord Johns, our small business critic, and I have written to the minister again this week. The holdup is often because landlords are not necessarily interested in the program; the tenants are. Even a 50% support for those tenants would make a big difference for small businesses and allow far more of them to actually make that transition through this pandemic.

It is a long way from being over. I know that some people want to cry victory and have a victory parade, but we've already seen that in the United States, in those states that opened up, there are rising cases of COVID-19.

Given that we are still in this crisis and will be for some time, is the finance ministry looking at adjusting the commercial rent relief so that it can actually help these small businesses?

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Mr. Halverson.

[Soren Halverson]

Thanks for the question, Mr. Julian.

That's a policy decision that's not part of the program as it currently exists. The program is supplemented by a range of other supports to assist small businesses.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

May I ask a final short question?

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Okay, you can ask a short one. Go ahead, Peter.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Are you preparing to present an economic update?

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Who at Finance is preparing that economic update? Are you working on that, Andrew? Does anybody want to answer?

Go ahead, Ms. McDermott.

[Alison McDermott, Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Economic and Fiscal Policy Branch, Department of Finance]

The government has not yet chosen the timing for the economic update. We'll do that. We are working, of course. We're very interested in studying these issues and discussing them. We've started discussions with private sector economists, and we'll provide that support. That work is under way.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you, Peter and officials.

We'll go to Mr. Morantz, followed by Mr. Fragiskatos. We'll have time for Mr. Cumming and Mr. Fraser as well.

Mr. Morantz.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Just before you start my clock ticking, I have a small point of order I want to raise with you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Okay, fire away.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Two weeks ago Mr. Groen was here. I asked him if he would table the two guidance memos reported on by the National Post that had red-flagged CERB applications. We've been checking with the clerk, but for some reason those guidance memos haven't been tabled. I recall you asking for them as well, Mr. Chair.

Instead of wasting my time on another question, I thought I'd bring it as a point of order and see if you could perhaps find out where the missing guidance memos are.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

It's not really a point of order, but we'll not take away your time. We'll just put it to Mr. Groen if he could get that information for us.

Go ahead with your question. Your point has been made.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

With respect to the wage subsidy, the latest numbers that I have show that about $8 billion have been paid out in claims for the first two periods, which is lower than the $76 billion that was originally costed by the PBO. Why is the uptake on the program so slack? That's really my question.

I know the Prime Minister has been out, in what Mr. Rex Murphy has anointed “the Tent of Commons”, imploring employers to hire people back. I don't think the Tent of Commons has been that effective for him.

To the question, it seems like government of course wants employers to hire people back, but the employers are not taking up the subsidy. What do you think the reason is?

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Does anybody want to take a stab?

Go ahead, Andrew.

[Andrew Marsland, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance]

I don't have a complete answer to the question. It is a good question. Perhaps I'll highlight a couple of points.

One is, of course, that we're looking at the data and understanding that. We're talking to people, and I think it's clear that there has been a bit of a delay with some people filing applications. We're also, as I think the committee is aware, consulting on an extension to the emergency wage subsidy, which was announced on May 15. As part of that consultation, we're trying to understand how employers are viewing the subsidy.

I think there is a range of factors, but it's clear—and I think it's reflected in the report filed with the committee—that the cost of the program is somewhat less than the original estimate.