Finance Committee on July 22nd, 2020

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you so much.

Thank you, Minister, for presenting today. Thank you for your remarks at the outset.

The first thing I would like to say is that 70 programs and over $200 billion in direct support to Canadians.... I know that during March and April, Davenport residents were super stressed. They were enormously happy with the programs as they were being announced. It gave them comfort that there was a government that was caring after them and was trying to help support them as we were going through an unprecedented pandemic that no one really knew how it was going to unfold. Thank you for that.

I also want to thank you for your apology, or both apologies: one is about recusing from the cabinet decision and then also for the $41,000 payment.

I have three key questions. The first one is, can you make it clear to the committee whether there was there any direction from you, your team or the finance department to select or suggest WE as the choice for the Canada student service grant?

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Thank you for your comments.

I think it has been a particularly challenging time, and I'm pleased to hear that you're receiving positive feedback from your constituents. I want to acknowledge that we are still in a pandemic, so these challenges will continue and we will continue to be thinking about how we support people.

The decisions around the programs to support students were very important, and those were decisions that were taken together with other departments. They were working together on what the right approach was to deliver, but the final recommendation for how the program was to be administered came from Employment and Social Development Canada, and that was their role, in thinking about how we could best deliver for students.

That is the approach. It was not up to me or my team to come up with those recommendations or even to do the direct analysis on the capabilities.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Was there a direct suggestion from you or your team to suggest that WE should be the choice for the Canada student service grant?

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

No, my team would not have directed that.

I certainly have no awareness, no first-hand knowledge, of the capabilities of either the public service or the WE organization to deliver that program.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

There's a lot of concern around the signing with the WE Charity Foundation, as opposed to WE Charity. Can you just make it clear for the committee that it was the responsibility of Minister Chagger to actually sign the final contract, and it wasn't with yourself or the finance department?

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Your assertion is correct. It was not my responsibility to sign any of those agreements, nor to consider which organization would be receiving those contracts.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

My last question is around the $41,000 that you've paid back today, Minister. I believe it was for two trips: one was to Kenya and one was to Ecuador. Can you explain what the intention of the trip was? Was the intention always to cover your own costs and the costs of your family going there?

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

All I can tell you is that I was completely surprised that, on review, there were expenses that had not been charged to us. It was always my intention, our family's intention, to pay for all expenses.

These were for two trips: one trip of my wife and daughter to Kenya to see schools that were being built there; and then, subsequently, to Ecuador, where we went as a family and were involved in actually building schools.

The expenses were appropriately my expenses. It was my mistake not to ensure that they were paid. I was unaware that they weren't charged to us. Having found that out, I obviously felt that I had made a mistake and I needed to immediately rectify the situation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you, both.

We will go to Madame Gaudreau for a two-minute question, then two minutes to Mr. Angus and we're done.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Good afternoon, Mr. Morneau.

I am not sure whether you heard my comments earlier in the House, but I have a lot of questions, as do all our constituents, about transparency and good judgment. People often ask me how this $1 billion contract was awarded under a contribution agreement, when volunteer directors are required to disclose any conflict of interest or appearance of conflict of interest.

Could you enlighten me, because I do not know what to say to my constituents, since there was clearly a major failure?

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Thank you for the question.

There are two things. Of course, we are in a crisis. The pandemic is very difficult. We decided to find ways to provide people with the support they need. There was an urgent need to respond to this situation. Of course, as I said, it was up to me to determine whether it was necessary to recuse myself, and it was a mistake to decide not to do so. I will change my approach in the future.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Mr. Morneau, let me say that your situation may not have been well known, but that everyone was aware of Mr. Trudeau's situation, if only because Ms. Grégoire had just returned from London and had contracted COVID-19 as well.

Was there no one in cabinet who focused on this and wondered whether this situation should be disclosed?

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

The policy was very important to students. So that was our goal. The administration of the program was done on a recommendation from the public service, and that's important. They decided how we were going to implement this program for students, and it was an important issue for them. We received and considered their recommendation.

In the end, our approach was to support students. I made a mistake and the Prime Minister was said to have made a mistake, but our intention was really to find the approach required to respond to the pandemic.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Morneau.

I have one last question—

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Sorry, Madame Gaudreau, we are out of time. It was two minutes.

We're a little over time, Minister, but to balance it, I'll have to give Mr. Angus two minutes as well.

Charlie, you're on.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thanks so much, Wayne Easter, my good friend and seatmate.

Minister, I'm glad your colleague clarified that it wasn't actually your department that was working out the details. It was Bardish Chagger's office, yet WE was talking to you. The Prime Minister began talking to you in early April, and you had the WE report. You said that the report was circulating.

Who in the Privy Council had that report? Who in the Prime Minister's office had the proposal, and had the Prime Minister seen it?

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Thank you.

I think what's important to know here is that what you're taking about is a proposal for a different program that apparently went to a number of ministers' offices. It came to me directly. I didn't review it at the time.

I don't have any way of knowing, but I would be very surprised that it would ever go to the Prime Minister. That would not normally be something that he would see—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

But the Prime Minister and you were talking about a program that.... I know that there was the original proposal, but the second proposal is very, very tied to WE. They called you up, Mr. Morneau. They reached out to you. It's not your file, it's Ms. Chagger's, but you are a friend to them. They paid $41,000 to you and your family to travel and it was not reported. They hired your daughter. They paid the Trudeau family over $300,000 at the time. They have an enormous amount of influence, so this is the question.

I know you read the Conflict of Interest Act when you first became minister and it's somewhere back in one of your files, but you need to understand that it's about buying political influence. It's about being your friend. They contact your office and it's your officials who are dealing with them. You're dealing with the Prime Minister and he has the same idea that you have, and boy, that idea is just like WE.

Doesn't it occur to you, Mr. Morneau, that you've been very influenced by this group? They've had the inside track from the get-go, and your relationship with them is helping to push that. You were the Kielburgers' pack mule pushing this through, and now it's all blown up on you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

We'll have to go to the minister.

Please clarify, Minister, whether they called you or you called them. Earlier, you said you called Mr. Kielburger over programming, I believe, or CERB or whatever it was.

Go ahead.

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

To be really clear here, the goal.... Certainly, in the discussions I had with the Prime Minister, we were thinking about how we could support students. That was critically important. We needed to come up with ways to make sure that we delivered support to students.

The inference that we had any idea of exactly how that support would happen, or even how it would be delivered, is incorrect. We were thinking about how we would support students and, as we developed the policy, then we passed it to the public service to think about how that could be properly delivered. That was a critically important step in thinking about how we could get that support.

The proposal that was circulated earlier on from the WE organization was separate. I certainly didn't have any awareness of that proposal when it came in. Much later, as I reported, I did have a call with Craig Kielburger and that was to understand generally how the COVID-19 situation was impacting businesses and organizations across the country.

Our goal here is, and remains, to support students. We know that there was a mistake made in terms of how we came through this decision-making process. I should have recused myself. The Prime Minister has also said that. We will continue to think about how we can best be supportive.

I just want to say that we need to move forward. It is a time of pandemic, and there will be more work for us to do.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Okay.

Minister, thank you very much for you testimony, and thank you—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

What's your point of order, Mr. Cooper?

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to put forward a motion to be debated at a future meeting. The motion reads as follows: “That whereas—”

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Okay, let's hear your motion first, and then I'll release the minister.

Go ahead.