Evidence of meeting #5 for Finance in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was economy.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Peter Weissman  Chartered Accountant, Trust and Estate Practitioner, As an Individual
Daniel Wilson  Special Advisor, Research and Policy Coordination, Assembly of First Nations
Timothy Ross  Executive Director, Co-operative Housing Federation of Canada
Courtney Lockhart  Program Manager, Policy and Government Relations, Co-operative Housing Federation of Canada
Kim Moody  Chief Executive Officer and Director, Canadian Tax Advisory, Moodys Gartner Tax Law LLP
Brian Sauvé  President, National Police Federation
Peter Merrifield  Vice-President, National Police Federation
Brian Kingston  Vice-President, Policy, International and Fiscal, Business Council of Canada
Francis Bradley  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Electricity Association
Pierre Céré  Spokesperson, Conseil national des chômeurs et chômeuses
Bilal Khan  Managing Partner and Head of Deloitte Data, Deloitte
Paul Taylor  President and Chief Executive Officer, Head Office, Mortgage Professionals Canada
Elaine Taylor  Chair of the Board of Directors, Head Office, Mortgage Professionals Canada
Nora Spinks  President and Chief Executive Officer, Vanier Institute of the Family
Kevin Lee  Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Home Builders' Association
Catherine Abreu  Executive Director, Climate Action Network Canada
Pierre Patry  Treasurer, Confédération des syndicats nationaux
Rebecca Alty  Vice-President, Northwest Territories Association of Communities
Sara Brown  Chief Executive Officer, Northwest Territories Association of Communities
Lisa McDonald  Executive Director, Prospectors and Developers Association of Canada
Charlotte Bell  President and Chief Executive Officer, Tourism Industry Association of Canada
François Bélanger  Union Advisor, Labour Relations Services, Confédération des syndicats nationaux
Paul Rochon  Deputy Minister, Department of Finance

7:35 p.m.

Treasurer, Confédération des syndicats nationaux

Pierre Patry

Well, that’s a broad question. The first thing I would say is that taxation is the cornerstone of social solidarity. It’s a way to redistribute wealth. Clearly, the tax system needs to be progressive, so the wealthy pay more than the poor. With that money, we set up public services, we establish programs to support social housing, health, education and indigenous populations, and we adopt measures to fight climate change. It’s a crucial building block, so it’s important to make sure the system is fair. Cracking down on tax havens in every way, regardless of how much it brings in, is vital.

You mentioned a public pharmacare program. Right now, even though Quebec has public pharmacare, there are people without drug coverage because it’s too costly for their employers, and that means they don’t have disability insurance either.

We want to put an end to that, so we are recommending that the government introduce public and comprehensive pharmacare, which would bring down the cost of drugs.

7:35 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC

Terrific. Thank you.

My next question is for Ms. Abreu.

You said very eloquently we have to stop investing in the problem. We heard testimony on Monday from the Department of Finance that the government is going to use EDC, the Canada account, to subsidize probably $15 billion or more of the construction of Trans Mountain. That would be the most massive fossil fuel subsidy that we've seen in our country.

How do you think the hundreds of municipalities that have declared a climate emergency, and the more than 100 national organizations that are part of the Climate Action Network, would react to the federal government putting the priority on $15 billion, $16 billion or $17 billion in construction to subsidize something that the private sector has walked away from?

7:35 p.m.

Executive Director, Climate Action Network Canada

Catherine Abreu

It is absolutely clear from our membership that we are opposed to fossil fuel subsidies. We need to get to a place where renewable energy, energy efficiency and clean technology operate on a level playing field with fossil fuel infrastructure. If we continue to subsidize the fossil fuel industry, then those industries that are emerging in the green economy will continue to be at a disadvantage.

Your use of the word "priority" is right. At this point, it's a question of where we decide to invest our limited resources, whether those are fiscal or political resources. If we continue to invest them in the growing fossil fuel industry in Canada, which is already the largest and fastest-growing source of carbon emissions in this country, then we will continue to have a poverty of resources that we can invest in solutions, whether those solutions are building retrofits for the 70% of buildings that are standing today and will still be standing into the 2040s and 2050s, or whether they are investments in affordable housing or energy-efficient public transportation.

We're getting to a point now where we need to have that sticky conversation. It isn't necessarily one of collapsing our fossil fuel industry tomorrow, which is something that organizations like mine often get accused of wanting. It is about taking the time that we have to make a plan that protects the planet and, very importantly, protects people.

7:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you both.

We'll go to Mr. Cooper.

7:40 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to direct my questions to Mr. Lee.

In terms of the stress test, looking at the time it was implemented, would you agree that the main issue for the overheated markets in greater Vancouver and greater Toronto was one of supply and not demand?

7:40 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Home Builders' Association

Kevin Lee

There was a lot going on there. Definitely a shortage of supply was and continues to be the main driver of house prices there, but there were many elements going on. There was also quite a bit of speculation going on. There was definitely a certain element of foreign investment. One of the challenges we have in Canada is that we don't have sufficient data to really know exactly how much of that is going on. There were a lot of different factors at play, but there's no question right now that, as we continue to see now that prices are starting to rebound again, the issue of supply.... We have a constant growth of population. Until we can get supply to match demand, prices will continue to go up.

7:40 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Certainly the stress test was aimed at demand, and it suppressed demand by keeping hundreds of thousands of potential homebuyers out of the market. You talked about some of the consequences, including in the greater Vancouver area. Would you agree that reduced demand did not improve affordability because any stabilization of pricing was matched by reduced spending or borrowing power?

7:40 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Home Builders' Association

Kevin Lee

Yes, really you haven't actually reduced demand in that instance; you've just tried to suppress it artificially. Those people are still looking to become homeowners but can't right now. It's not that the demand is gone; it's just that they cannot.

The problem is that you haven't improved affordability. The element of any house price stabilization or decline that comes from locking people out isn't affordability. That's just reducing the ability of people to buy, reducing equity for people who have houses and reducing affordability by telling people they can't qualify.

There is a better happy medium that we can find and move forward, to help people get into the market. As long as we can provide the right amount of supply moving forward, continuing to have mortgage rules that enable people to get out of rental is very good, not only for them but to open up the rental stock for other people who need more affordable rent.

7:40 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Next, I don't think I heard you address the point, which I assume you'd be in favour of but would like some clarification on, about mortgage renewals, about providing an exemption to be able to go to a different lender for first-time buyers. It seems to me that's just common sense.

7:40 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Home Builders' Association

Kevin Lee

Absolutely. You don't want to have financial institutions with captive customers. You need to be able to shop around to provide a competitive marketplace. It only makes sense.

7:40 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

First-time homebuyers are low-risk borrowers.

7:40 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Home Builders' Association

Kevin Lee

Yes, of course. They are the lowest risk of any cohort, and yet we're telling them they're the ones who shouldn't be getting into the housing market as homeowners.

7:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you.

Mr. Fraser.

7:40 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

Thank you very much to each of our witnesses.

I want to start my questions with you, Ms. Bell. The tourism industry is a big deal for us in Nova Scotia, as it is for all of Canada, as you quite aptly pointed out. You mentioned conventions and meetings as being one specific sector within the tourism industry. I think you said it was $33 billion a year. I'm curious to know whether you see certain sectors within the tourism industry that are particularly ripe for the picking when it comes to economic growth opportunities.

7:40 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Tourism Industry Association of Canada

Charlotte Bell

Certainly, the meetings and conventions sector continues to be ripe for growth. Canada is ranked sixth in the world, in terms of the meetings and conventions sector. It is already doing very well.

I would say that small businesses represent most of our industry. We are looking to grow tourism and expand the tourism season. Most people tend to come here between June and September. We are trying to expand that and make sure we're growing the sector. I think there is a real opportunity for small businesses. Through the Canadian experiences fund that was unveiled by the government this past year, we have seen a lot of demand in markets across the country and in a lot of regional and rural markets. where there is a lot of attractive opportunity for product development. The other area, of course, is indigenous tourism and culinary tourism. Those sectors are ripe for growth, I think, and are continuing to grow.

7:45 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

In order to maximize the growth potential of these different sectors, whether they're the ones you mentioned or others, I'm curious to know where you think the potential role of the federal government would be best placed. I know you mentioned boosting funding for Destination Canada. When I'm at home, there are different things pitched to me, from campground operators to marketers for particular regions. In less-developed portions of my home province, we sometimes don't have look-offs or washrooms for two hours of driving. A boost to infrastructure could potentially help grow economic opportunities.

Are there certain areas where you think investments should be targeted to maximize growth, in particular to secondary tourism markets that may not have the brand of our major centres?

7:45 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Tourism Industry Association of Canada

Charlotte Bell

That is part of what the Canadian experiences fund is doing, because it is national. All tourism is local, at the end of the day, but this fund is available through the six regional development agencies. We're currently working with our regional and provincial partners to identify areas that are ripe for the picking, as you say, where there is opportunity for growth, where we're going to go in and build capacity and help people figure out a great product and what's needed for infrastructure. The government is also putting together six regional tables, bringing together Parks Canada, Heritage Canada, Destination Canada and all of these players to develop regional strategies across the country.

I think there are opportunities across the entire country to do this, but we need to have a system in place and policies in place that support that. I think these initiatives will go a long way to doing that. That is part of the reason we're asking for more spending and investment through the CEF.

7:45 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

Ms. Abreu, you led off your remarks by pointing to the fact that climate change is impacting people's everyday lives. I find we are too often trying to inspire a sense of altruism in people before they buy into actually having the need to do something about it. There are places at home where there are no longer salmon in the rivers where people used to fish. I'm worried about the lobster industry when I see what's happening in Maine as the ocean temperature rises.

How can we more effectively communicate the fact that this is happening now and is impacting people today? We heard testimony from the Insurance Bureau of Canada that insurance rates are going up. Taxes are going up. But people don't necessarily look behind the curtain. How can we do a better job of communicating the immediate and personal impact of climate change on families and households today?

February 5th, 2020 / 7:45 p.m.

Executive Director, Climate Action Network Canada

Catherine Abreu

That's a great question. I share very similar concerns as my Canadian family all comes from the east coast in Nova Scotia as well.

I'm going to give you an answer that is maybe not quite what you're expecting. I do think we've actually come a long way in terms of communicating the risks to people's everyday lives that come from climate impacts. We see coverage of that in the news at an unprecedented rate. In 2019, we embarked on a new era of climate mobilization with hundreds of thousands of Canadians getting into the street to demand increased climate action, so I think that conversation has really happened.

What we don't have is a series of mechanisms built into the institutional governance in Canada when it comes to climate action that help Canadians understand what taking action on climate change looks like. We have a target that's set a decade from now, in 2030; and we have a series of models that we look to every once in a while that tell us how many megatonnes we may or may not be off from that target. That story is not a very compelling or human one. It's not relatable. If we were able to take the kinds of legislative and institutional changes that organizations like Climate Action Network Canada and many of our members have been recommending, to increase the transparency around Canada's climate action and tell a more fulsome story about the ways that action is actually changing how Canadians live in this country, then we might be able to help Canadians see themselves taking action on climate change.

For instance, I'm talking about Canada adopting a similar process to that of the German Environment Agency, where we have positive indicators of progress. We say we're going to get this many Canadians out of single-passenger internal-combustion engine trips over the course of this amount of time, and here's the package of policies we're going to use to make that happen. Then you're able to tell that story year over year and people see themselves in that.

7:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Okay.

Lisa and Jeff, from the Prospectors and Developers Association of Canada, had no questions directed their way. Is there anything you want to sum up with, based on the kind of conversation that went around the panel? The floor is yours for a final comment.

7:50 p.m.

Executive Director, Prospectors and Developers Association of Canada

Lisa McDonald

Sure. I'll just take a moment to point out that people don't necessarily make the connection that minerals are absolutely fundamental to the transition to a low-carbon economy. We cannot have renewable energy, we cannot have clean tech, we cannot have a green economy without the minerals and metals that our members are exploring for. With the correct policies in place, Canada is poised to be the supplier of choice for those minerals that will help transform not only Canada but the world to the low-carbon economy.

7:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you.

Just to the Climate Action Network as well, we've had several people from the energy industry here, and the biggest investor in the energy industry was here yesterday. I'm not going to get into a discussion on this, but we need to find some way of having the environmental side of the argument and the fossil-fuel side of the argument stop talking past each other and come together to find some solutions. If you listen to the oil industry, they'll say the Alberta discount is costing us $587 billion a year because we're not getting a market price for oil. I think you all need to consider those factors. Everybody has their argument to make, but somehow we're going to have to bring these two sides together or we're never going to make progress.

I really appreciated the comments you made, too, Mr. Fraser.

We have the minister arriving at eight o'clock, and we've been sitting for five hours, so we'll try to stretch our legs for a few minutes.

I want to thank all the witnesses for their very good presentations, specific to the point, on short notice. They will be considered.

The meeting is suspended.

8 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

We'll reconvene.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee is continuing its pre-budget consultations for budget 2020.

We have an hour or thereabouts. We'd like to welcome the Minister of Middle Class Prosperity, the Hon. Mona Fortier, as well as Deputy Minister Rochon and Assistant Deputy Minister Yaskiel.

I believe, Minister, you have an opening statement, and then we'll get into our regular time frame on questions. We appreciate your coming at this relatively late hour.

Welcome.

8:05 p.m.

Ottawa—Vanier Ontario

Liberal

Mona Fortier LiberalMinister of Middle Class Prosperity

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I’d also like to thank the finance committee for inviting me to discuss the pre-budget consultation process that we began on January 13. As well, I’d like to thank the department officials for being here with me this evening.

Before I begin, I would like to talk about a very important measure we put forward last year. Our government introduced a proposal that would lower taxes for the middle class and people working hard to join it. We would do that by letting people keep more of what they earn, up to $15,000, before they have to pay any federal income tax.

We made this proposal because we know a lot of people are feeling the squeeze at the end of the month and need a little help to make ends meet. All told, it's a change that would mean lower taxes for close to 20 million Canadians. At the same time, we've also chosen to take steps to ensure that this help goes to the people who need it most. The wealthiest people in Canada, those in the top 1% of income earners, wouldn't benefit from this change.

This brings me to our work as we prepare budget 2020.

To establish policies that work for everyone and that contribute to a country based on inclusive growth, we need to know more about what Canadians need.

As you know, we have undertaken pre-budget consultations in an effort to reach out to Canadians in every corner of the country to learn what their priorities are. We are meeting with important stakeholders in rural, urban and remote communities across the country to find out what matters most to Canadians.

We recognize that there is still much to do in order to build an even stronger middle class. We are asking stakeholders and individual Canadians specific questions that will shed light on their priorities. We want to know what will make the biggest difference to Canadians’ to improve their quality of life, whether that means reducing the cost of living or supporting well-being.

To better understand the situations facing Canadians and the problems they are dealing with, during our meetings and round tables, we are focusing on four key themes: strengthening the middle class and growing the economy; fighting climate change and protecting the environment; keeping Canadians healthy and safe; and moving forward on reconciliation with indigenous peoples.

As these four themes demonstrate, we are building on the work we started during our last mandate. In that time, we grew the economy while protecting the environment. The themes are also in line with the mandate I was given to establish growth indicators that will provide a clear picture of Canadians’ quality of life and the economy.

Budget 2020 will take into account the findings that have emerged from these pre-budget consultations. Understanding the priorities of Canadians living in different realities—whether they are in Vancouver, Napanee or Montreal—has been very informative to us as we develop the next budget, because we know that a strong economy is one that works for everyone.

I would like to highlight some key ways in which we have helped strengthen the middle class over the last four years.

Since 2015, through government investment and the hard work of Canadians, our economy has added over one million new jobs. The unemployment rate is at its lowest levels in more than 40 years. Our policies have lifted almost 900,000 Canadians out of poverty, including 300,000 children and almost 60,000 seniors.

Our investments in people have also strengthened our economy. We have continually reduced our debt-to-GDP ratio, which is the lowest in the G7. Canada continues to have the best balance sheet in the G7, which gives us a real competitive advantage.

Canada is predicted to have continued growth through 2020. Wages are on the rise. Business profits are solid. We maintain a AAA rating. Thanks to the Canada child benefit, nine out of 10 families with children now receive more money than they did previously. With the enhancements to the guaranteed income supplement and the Canada pension plan, seniors have and will continue to have a more secure and dignified retirement. We created the Canada workers benefit, a strengthened, more generous and more accessible benefit to help low-income workers keep more of their hard-earned money.

We have put gender at the heart of government decision-making. Today, more women are employed and contributing to our shared economic success than at any point in Canadian history. We've made a lot of progress these past years. However, we recognize that far too many families still feel that they are struggling to make ends meet. We know that we still have work to do.

During the pre-budget consultations in Hamilton, I heard that parents see real value in the Canada child benefit, but there is still more work to do to help those caring for young children find available, flexible and affordable child care.

Meeting and round table participants in Montreal highlighted the important role entrepreneurs play in strengthening competitiveness. In every city, we’ve heard about the importance of skilled trades in the workforce.

Another theme at the heart of our conversations with Canadians has been fighting climate change and protecting the environment. We all know that one of the most important issues of our time is the effects of climate change on our communities, our lives and our economy.

From forest fires to floods and droughts to the extreme temperatures and intensifying storms, we are feeling the impacts of climate change everywhere in the country and around the world. Canadians have been clear. They expect their government to take action on climate change and to protect the environment. This is why, over the past four years, we've taken serious action to fight climate change and to protect our communities from its impacts.

Since last year, it hasn’t been free to pollute anywhere in Canada. We put a price on pollution to protect the environment, while putting more money in the pockets of Canadian families. We are phasing out coal power and moving towards 90% clean electricity for cleaner air and healthier communities. Canadians know that climate action can no longer be put off, and we, as a government, know that too. We need to be ambitious as we fight climate change. Finding solutions to both challenges is what will make a real difference in the lives of middle-class Canadians.

We know that, for Canadians to thrive, they need to be healthy and safe. This is why, in our pre-budget consultations, we have focused our discussions on how we can better meet the needs of Canadians when it comes to health care and pharmacare.

We also discussed the needs of communities and the need for people to feel safer. What does a safer community mean for Canadians? How can we protect our communities to ensure the overall well-being of Canadians? This is a vital point of focus as we move forward to better understand what contributes to the quality of life of Canadians and how we can build stronger, healthier and safer communities.

Budget 2020 will also continue to walk the path toward reconciliation with indigenous peoples. Real progress has been made over the last four years, but much more work needs to be done. We are delivering on a renewed relationship with indigenous peoples, working together to improve quality of life and advance self-determination. We know we have a long way to go, and we will continue to work in partnership with indigenous peoples toward closing the socio-economic gaps that exist today.

Clearly, then, our pre-budget consultations are useful. They give us an opportunity to hear what Canadians think about many issues affecting their everyday lives and how they feel those issues should be addressed. We want to know what further actions we should take to make their lives more affordable. We’d like to know what other measures we could implement to put good jobs within their reach.

In short, we want to know what we can do to strengthen the middle class and continue growing the economy.

Our goal is an economy that works for everyone. That said, Canadians have made it clear, both online and during round tables, that helping them earn a good income and keep more money in their pockets is not enough to improve their lives. While they are important elements, truly making the lives of middle-class Canadians better also means ensuring that Canadians are safe, secure and healthy, that the environment they live in is protected, and that the progress towards reconciliation continues.

Whether it’s strengthening our public health care system, providing better access to medications, cracking down on gun crime, protecting the environment or fighting climate change, we know these are the issues that matter to Canadians. The issues raised by meeting participants are complemented by suggestions we receive from Canadians online.

Not only have we been meeting with Canadians in person, but our pre-budget consultation process has spread a wide net, using the Department of Finance's online consultations website. Since the start of the consultations, more than 16,000 Canadians have submitted their ideas on how budget 2020 can best meet their needs. This engagement is very valuable and will be used as we develop this very important budget.

While I have the opportunity, I would like to talk a bit about my mandate as Minister of Middle Class Prosperity and Associate Minister of Finance and the importance of it in the pre-budget consultations, as well as within our government.

While the economy is strong and growing, we know that families are struggling to make ends meet. My role is to work alongside my cabinet colleagues to ensure that economic growth is shared fairly and that opportunities are created for all. This is what the OECD and other countries worldwide have identified as inclusive growth. By factoring inclusive growth as the baseline of our government decisions, we are ensuring that our policies address the gap between economic growth and the financial squeeze felt by too many Canadians. We will work, using a whole-of-government approach, to ensure that the prosperity of the middle class is at the heart of policy decisions.

Through these pre-budget consultations and within my mandate, we want to know how we can best help Canadians have a safe and affordable place to call home, a good well-paying job to support their family, a secure retirement, access to health care and the ability to build a better future for themselves and their families. It is by understanding the full scope of the well-being of Canadians that we can build a framework that informs how we grow the economy in ways that it grows for everyone.

On that note, Mr. Chair, I would be happy to answer any questions you or the committee members have about our pre-budget consultation work.

Thank you.

8:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you very much, Minister.

We'll go to our regular time slots, which will be six minutes for the first four questioners and five minutes for the next four questioners. We should be able to do that in the time allocated.

We'll start with Mr. Kelly.

Mr. Kelly, welcome back to the finance committee. We've missed you during these pre-budget consultations.

The floor is yours.