Finance Committee on Aug. 12th, 2020

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

To your knowledge, was an analysis conducted of WE Charity's capacity to administer the Canada student service grant?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

Yes. If there wasn't.... The public service would not have recommended WE if they didn't believe WE could deliver, and, in fact, my understanding was that given the program parameters and timelines we'd laid out, their recommendation was that WE was the only organization positioned to do everything we were asking this third party to do.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

All right. With that, thank you, members, and thank you, Minister and Mr. Robidoux, for your presentations.

I really thank you, Minister, for the clarity of your answers.

With that, we will suspend for a few minutes while we bring up the next panel.

Thank you again, Minister.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

We will reconvene and I'll call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 50 and panel number two of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Finance. I think we all know what issue we're studying and that we're here by video conference, so to save time, we'll turn to our guest, the Minister of Small Business and Export Promotion.

Welcome, Minister. We don't have anybody with you. Or do we? If you do, you'll have to introduce them.

You have short opening remarks, I believe, and then we'll go to questions. The first questioner will be Mr. Cumming, followed by Mr. Fraser.

Minister, the floor is yours.

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Minister of Small Business and Export Promotion]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon to all members of the finance committee. Thank you for inviting me today to speak to Canadians, and thank you for all your important work, especially during these difficult times.

Over the past few months, Canadians have been facing the crisis of our generation.

When the COVID-19 pandemic hit, our government made the decision that we would do everything we could to help businesses and all Canadians through this crisis.

From the very beginning, our team knew that the only way we would be able to deliver supports to respond to the real needs of Canadians was to listen and to respond as quickly as we could.

Over the past several months, my team and I connected with thousands and thousands of people—small business owners, entrepreneurs, industry leaders, financial institutions, chambers of commerce, boards of trade, not-for-profits and more—through calls, virtual meetings and correspondence every single day. In fact, from March 11 to July 15, my office and departmental officials hosted a daily call every morning to listen, to answer questions and to get direct feedback from business owners and organizations across the country. At times, over a thousand businesses called in to speak with us, and these calls continue to be held twice a week.

It was by listening that we were able to deliver the single largest economic support package for Canadians in our history and adjust our supports in direct response to what we heard to help them get through this pandemic. Whether it was the 75% wage subsidy supporting over three million Canadian jobs, the wide range of lending supports, including the $40,000 CEBA loan, which is helping over 700,000 business owners with cash flow, keeping costs low by allowing businesses to defer GST, HST and customs duties, or stepping up to reduce rent for small business tenants by 75%, we listened to Canadians to ensure the emergency support we delivered would help them through this crisis and put them in a better position for economic recovery.

This isn't a new approach for us. Listening is at the heart of how my team and I work to serve Canadians. In my role as the minister, as well as the member of Parliament for Markham—Thornhill, my team and I have an open door policy.

I continue to speak with and listen to thousands of Canadians for their feedback and ideas and potential solutions from every sector and every region across this country, and as many as my schedule will allow. As the member of Parliament for Markham—Thornhill, I've also met with many constituents and businesses from our communities to hear directly from them about their successes, their challenges and their experiences.

I want to take this opportunity to be transparent with respect to the interactions my team and I have had with the WE Charity in recent months.

It was in my capacity as the member of Parliament for Markham—Thornhill that WE Charity, as an organization that had its roots in Thornhill, first reached out to my riding office in December of 2018 to see if I could attend an event with young people. Due to scheduling issues, this event never took place.

In the fall of 2019, when I was re-elected as the member of Parliament for Markham-Thornhill, WE Charity sent a congratulatory email to my office.

In December 2019, after I was appointed in my expanded mandate as the Minister of Small Business, Export Promotion and International Trade, WE Charity sent another congratulatory email and offered dates for a meeting in the new year to discuss their work.

In January 2020 my chief of staff met with Sofia Marquez, director of government and stakeholder relations for the WE Charity. This was an introductory meeting requested by Sofia to discuss WE Charity's work.

Following that meeting, an introductory call between me and Craig Kielburger was scheduled for April 7. This meeting was scheduled on February 21.

We had a 30-minute phone conversation, along with a few WE Charity staff, where Mr. Kielburger and his team talked about their work, with a focus on empowering young people in Markham—Thornhill. Mr. Kielburger also mentioned a proposal for a potential social entrepreneurship program at the very end of the call and I invited him to share that proposal with my office. I did not have knowledge of this proposal before that call.

On April 9 Mr. Kielburger's team shared a document with my chief of staff and me and attached a document titled WE social entrepreneurship “Concept Paper”. Mr. Kielburger noted in his email that this was a concept paper and that they would follow up with a more detailed proposal shortly. This was unrelated to the youth service program. On April 15 my office responded to their email that we would look into this.

On April 22 my office received an updated proposal from Mr. Kielburger. After analysis by my department and a review by my office, we concluded that we would not move forward with the social entrepreneurship proposal, because it likely wouldn't directly fit under my portfolio and there were better ways to support young entrepreneurs amid COVID-19, including our April 17 announcement to invest $20 million to help young entrepreneurs under the existing Futurpreneur program. My team informed the WE Charity of our reasons for not supporting the social entrepreneurship program on April 30.

For context, on April 5 the Canada student services grant program was presented to the cabinet committee on COVID-19, which I am a part of. This proposal was separate from the social entrepreneurship proposal that my office had received.

One month after informing WE Charity of our decision not to move forward on their social entrepreneurship proposal, Ms. Marquez reached out again to my staff on June 2, asking to speak further, as she indicated that they were considering revisions to it. My chief of staff communicated to my policy team that we needed to be clear with WE that we were not moving forward with their social entrepreneurship proposal. On June 18 my office clearly communicated to Ms. Marquez over the phone that we would not be moving forward with their proposal for a social entrepreneurship program, and this was acknowledged.

The communication that I had with WE Charity was solely about a proposal for young entrepreneurs.

To be clear, neither I nor anyone on my team spoke with the WE Charity about the youth service program or the Canada student services grant.

Over the past few months, I've continued to do exactly what Canadians expect: to listen to Canadians; to be open to new ideas and solutions; and to do our due diligence with any ideas and proposals we receive, including seeking and receiving the public service's input, analysis and recommendations. Our aim continues to be to do the very best possible job to help our businesses and all Canadians succeed. Right now, that means ensuring that they are well supported through this crisis and have the tools that they need to rebuild and to recover from COVID-19.

Mr. Chair, committee members and Canadians, thank you for your attention. I am here, in all transparency, to answer any questions that you might have. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you very much, Minister.

We will go to our first six-minute round, with Mr. Cumming, Mr. Fraser, Mr. Fortin and Mr. Julian.

Mr. Cumming.

[James Cumming, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Madam Minister, for appearing today.

Just for some clarity, did you or your office have any communications with WE Charity or the Kielburger brothers in the month of March?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

No, we did not.

[James Cumming, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

The first time that you heard from them was to discuss this potential youth entrepreneurship proposal.

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

In February my office scheduled a meeting to take place on April 7. At that time, I spoke with Mr. Kielburger. It was at the end of that conversation that Mr. Kielburger raised the idea of a social entrepreneurship program.

[James Cumming, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

When you received this proposal from Mr. Kielburger or his staff, what did you do with that proposal? Did you forward it to any other offices? Was there any conversation with the PMO regarding that proposal?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

I received the concept paper a couple of days after that initial conversation. As I said in my earlier remarks, I received a concept paper for the social entrepreneurship program. That was received on April 9. We received more updated information on the social entrepreneurship program, and we provided that to my department. I asked for their analysis and their recommendation.

They provided that to me, and the recommendation was that it was not really within my mandate. Therefore, I took the recommendation and decided not to proceed with the social entrepreneurship program.

[James Cumming, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Did you forward this program to any other department? Did you forward it to Finance, to ESDC or Youth, or to any other department?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

I did not, but it would be completely appropriate for my staff, in the course of their review along with officials in reviewing the social entrepreneurship program, to consult with relevant ministerial offices. That would be very consistent with normal practice in an effort to come up with an analysis and a recommendation to me.

[James Cumming, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

When did you first find out that WE was being considered for the broader program, the student grant program?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

It would have been at the COVID-19 cabinet committee, which I am a part of. The first time the proposal made its way to cabinet committee would have been on May 5, and I would have been briefed for that committee so that I could participate in that committee. That would have been the first time I learned of the Canada student service grant proposal.

[James Cumming, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Are you not surprised that WE would have been pitching a program to you and to your office and then this other program morphs out of some other discussions? When you were at cabinet, was it not surprising to you that WE was also being considered for other programs?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Well, I certainly received the social entrepreneurship program. That was what I—my team—looked at. That was what my officials reviewed, and that was the recommendation I received. As part of the deliberations at the COVID committee and at cabinet, it was about supports for students. It was our government's commitment to make sure that at this very critical time we would provide supports to students. One of the components is the service grant, and it came forward at the cabinet committee. I participated there and I participated subsequently at cabinet in the deliberation of that program.

[James Cumming, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Minister, given your portfolio, at those cabinet meetings did you discuss or advocate for expansion of the Canada summer jobs program—given its connections to small business and not-for-profits—rather than this volunteer grant program? Were you able to advocate for businesses at that cabinet meeting to maybe expand that program, the Canada summer jobs program?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Well, I'm not able to share the specific deliberations, but it was a whole-of-government decision, of course, to support the Canada student service grant.

To answer your question on whether I advocate for supports for businesses, all the time, in fact. That is what I do every day in this portfolio, humbly, as you well know. You and I have certainly talked about the very many needs of small businesses across this country, so at all times I would advocate for small businesses. With respect to this particular proposal, it was this particular proposal that we discussed, and we did make a decision as a government to proceed with this support for students, as it was very important at the time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

You're down to the last question, James.

[James Cumming, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Yes, Minister, we have talked. I'm still waiting for you to get that access out of their personal banking accounts announced for those small businesses, which hasn't happened, but I'll go back to the WE issue.

The Prime Minister has stated that he pulled this and asked for additional due diligence. Given that there was the potential of students getting this job experience and that you had seen a proposal from WE, was there any discussion with your department whatsoever about due diligence on this program with WE?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

The proposal came forward to the cabinet committee. It came forward to cabinet. I was briefed by my staff as I normally would be in advance of cabinet to be sure that I was provided with all of the information necessary to participate in cabinet. That was what was provided to me and that was the work that I undertook that allowed me to participate fully in cabinet, and as you well know, cabinet as a full cabinet approved the Canada student service grant.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

We'll have to end it there.

I just can't help but say, Minister, that Mr. Cumming and I, and I think all on the committee, are on the same page on the CEBA, which we've talked to you about before. Just send that message up to the PMO. It's time for personal bank accounts rather than catering to the business accounts of the banks.

With that—sorry, guys—we'll go to Mr. Fortin, who will be followed by Mr. Julian.

Mr. Fortin.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, Madam Minister.

Madam Minister, the contract was—