Finance Committee on Dec. 10th, 2020

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

In terms of reducing emissions, is it fair to say, then, that carbon leakage is a significant factor in the policies? In other words, when activity merely moves from one jurisdiction to another, we are not reducing or contributing to a reduction in global GHGs but merely punishing the Canadian economy.

[Mark Scholz]

Well, I would add to that. I would say that because we don't have as much investment in Canada....

Let's be very frank: Canadians are the innovators when it comes to a lot of this technology that will allow us to reduce emissions. You can look at things like bi-fuel technology, where we can use natural gas as well as diesel in our engines, and tide-line electrification of our rigs, where we actually have no emissions whatsoever in terms of scope 1 emissions. We can power our rigs directly from the electricity grid.

The other example I can give you is Canadian downhole technology in terms of how we've been so productive in drilling efficiencies and optimization. Generally, wells that 10, 15 or 20 years ago would take 40 days to drill we're now drilling in 10 days. When you look at that on the basis of emissions, that's a 75% reduction in overall emissions. That's Canadian technology that we want to build right here in our country.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

That's a fantastic good-news story. However, if Canadian technology is part of the solution to better efficiency and reduction in emissions, but investment is being chased to other jurisdictions, that will not help us achieve any kind of goal or support our economy.

I have only a few moments left—

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

It's your last question, Pat.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

—so I'll throw my last question to Mr. Goodman and get him in here.

Can you comment, sir, on the clean fuel standard and the implications for both consumers and industry?

[Tristan Goodman]

Sure, I can quickly answer that as the chair moves us on here.

There are certainly opportunities within the clean fuel standards. There's a large debate that is going to continue around the clean fuel standards. A lot of the innovation that Mr. Scholz was talking about has great application within that. There is debate as to the impact on Canadians from a disposable income perspective, but there's no question that there will be some changes coming up, both some opportunities from an oil and gas perspective, as well as some challenges on the implementation.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you all for that round.

We are turning to Mr. McLeod. You have six minutes, Michael.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and to all of the presenters here today. It's a very interesting discussion.

I'd like to say welcome to Mayor Alty from Yellowknife. It's good to have somebody from the north in the mix once in awhile.

I listened closely to your recommendations. The recommendation on the gas tax.... In budget 2019, our government did do a one-time doubling of the gas tax transfer. I wonder if you could tell us how that helped Yellowknife. Would a similar top-up in budget 2021 assist with the city's infrastructure plans?

[Rebecca Alty]

Thanks for the question.

Yes. We were definitely grateful for that top-up.

We have a lot coming up in our capital plan. It's not those sexy projects that all taxpayers love to talk about. It's our sewage lagoon, sludge removal and waste management. They're not cheap projects, so when we talk about creating a new cell that's required at our solid waste facility in 2023, that's a $4.5 million project for a city of 20,000. It's significant infrastructure that we have to keep up.

There's also our water submarine line, which ensures that we have clean drinking water. We have the Giant Mine, which is a toxic legacy that the federal government is cleaning up right now. We actually have to draw our water from farther up the lake, which isn't as close to our water treatment plant. Replacing that submarine line is a $9 million project. This is just on the heels of all these other big projects.

We're talking about $19 to $45 million a year in capital projects over the next 10 years.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Thank you for that.

I really appreciate hearing somebody recommend that resources should be ramped up for the federal government side of indigenous land claims and negotiations for self-government. Maybe even adding to that is the need for a recognition or rights framework. I think Yellowknife is really in a land-locked situation, being surrounded by land claims on all sides. It would really help if we could move that forward. That's good to hear. Hopefully, people are listening.

I did want to ask about how the City of Yellowknife envisions having the call to action number 21 met, which you mentioned. Would that be through a larger central healing centre, several smaller facilities throughout the north, an on the land program in the communities, or a combination of all these? What is your city's vision?

[Rebecca Alty]

The discussion that happens in the north is that there are multiple throughout. Here in Yellowknife, we had the Arctic Indigenous Wellness Foundation recently begin. It's now in its third or fourth year and has great success, but it has no core funding. It's really important.

Mental health and addictions are huge costs to the health care system, which the federal government is supporting through NIHB. It's really a cost of whether you're going to be paying for the ramifications of not dealing with the mental health and addictions or if you want to be preventative and try to resolve these issues before they become hospitalizations and criminal justice issues.

I think it's important that TRC recommendation 21 is addressed. The report is going up on its sixth year of being released. That recommendation is definitely needed here in the Northwest Territories.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

I don't know how much time I have left, but I want to ask you a final question on the rapid housing initiative that you mentioned.

I know that many organizations in the Northwest Territories are interested in accessing the rapid housing initiative. Could you tell the committee how the City of Yellowknife has considered using and accessing these funds, and if you have any recommendations for improving the program?

I just got a call today from the Sahtu. They're saying that we need to extend some of the time frames. These are tight. They have winter road schedules and everything else. Maybe you can talk about that a little bit.

[Rebecca Alty]

The City of Yellowknife has four different ideas that we're looking to pursue. Two of them include motel transformations into single-use apartments. The other one is an old office building that's now vacant. There are 10 storeys that could be transformed into residential units. Then there's a federal asset. There's a 36-unit apartment building that the federal government has empty here in Yellowknife, and we are hoping that it can be transformed into supportive housing, because the market rental in Yellowknife is sufficient for federal employees. That's just what the City of Yellowknife has. The YWCA also has a project that they're looking to expand, and there are a few more NGOs.

The timeline is incredibly tight. I recognize that the idea is to get the money out the door; however, we're all in the midst of a pandemic trying to keep our heads above water. Trying to do our regular jobs and apply for this funding—not to kick a gift horse in the mouth—is a challenge, so getting the funding applications in and then the timelines to get it done here in the north.... Yellowknife is lucky in that we do have road access, but for a community like Paulatuk, which is up in the Arctic Ocean, finding out that they get funding in March means that they can't do their project until summer 2022, which by then, has already blown the rapid housing initiative deadline. Really, it's about recognizing that not all communities have road access, and even for those of us with road access, it's about just being able to have enough human power to get these projects done, because even when you have a modular unit, it comes, and it has to be set up on the grounds, so you still need those trades folks.

Again, it's great; we really need housing support here in the north, but the program hasn't been designed necessarily to lead to success, because we're all such small organizations. The next speaker is from the community of Lutselk’e, which has a tiny government staff. They don't have people on staff to be able to fill out complicated—

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

We will have to leave it at that. I think you're sending the message to get the decisions done well ahead of construction season. We have the same problem in what you would call the “south”.

I'll turn to Gabriel Ste-Marie for six minutes.

I believe you are in a room in Ottawa.

Mr. Ste-Marie will be followed by Mr. Julian.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First, I'd like to say good afternoon to all the witnesses.

I would also like to thank the mayor of Yellowknife for giving part of her presentation in French. I am very grateful to her for that.

My questions are for Mr. Breton of Electric Mobility Canada.

Why should we increase the rebate eligibility cap for light electric trucks?

[Daniel Breton]

Thank you for your question, Mr. Ste-Marie.

Actually, the answer is very simple. At the moment, the way the rebates have been designed for electric vehicles means that basically only cars are eligible for a federal rebate when they are purchased. But more and more people need a sport utility vehicle, an SUV, or a pickup truck for family or work. Unfortunately, due to the price of those vehicles, they do not qualify for the federal rebate because they are still a little more expensive to purchase. Whether they are gas or electric, larger vehicles are always a little more expensive.

For electric SUVs and pickup trucks, increasing the rebate eligibility cap is intended to ensure regional equity, but also equity for Canadians who need larger vehicles.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you for your answer.

I represent the constituency of Joliette, where many people own a pickup truck or at least need a vehicle with towing capacity. Currently, none of those vehicles are eligible for the rebate.

You addressed this issue in your presentation, but could you elaborate on the economic costs of pollution in Canada?

[Daniel Breton]

Yes. A year ago, almost to the day, Health Canada released a report on the overall economic cost of air pollution, an estimated $114 billion per year. That's an astronomical number. People don't realize how much air pollution is all around us, and that a significant portion of it comes from transportation. Over 50% of carbon monoxide and nitrogen oxide emissions, or NO_x, come from transportation, and cars, along with light and heavy-duty trucks, account for 20% to 30% of those emissions, depending on the type of vehicle.

So, if air pollution can be reduced by moving towards light and heavy-duty electric vehicles, the costs could help create jobs in the electrification of transportation. We have several manufacturers of electric vehicles in Canada, Ford and Chrysler in Ontario, for example. British Columbia has some. Manitoba has New Flyer. Quebec has Nova Bus, Girardin and Electric Lion. So, many companies do it.

That's one aspect of the economic interest.

The other aspect is that, in reducing air pollution, we reduce health costs by tens of billions of dollars. That is an extremely important aspect of the transition to electric vehicles.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

You said that, because of air pollution, people were going to develop illnesses or complications. Health Canada's $114 billion, which is a very impressive number, represents the additional costs on the health care system. For example, someone living on Saint-Joseph Boulevard in Montreal who breathes in traffic emissions is at risk of developing illnesses, and that comes at a cost.

Quebec has zero emission legislation. If Canada used that act as a model and committed to having one by 2030, in your opinion, what kind of positive economic impact would it have on jobs and income?

[Daniel Breton]

In another report we published, we did a calculation to see the result if Canada were to follow the lead of British Columbia, which has just introduced zero emission legislation, much like Quebec, California and more and more jurisdictions in North America and around the world.

We calculated the increase in revenue for utilities like Hydro-Québec, BC Hydro and SaskPower. We're talking about the sale of electricity, charging stations and infrastructure, as well as construction work, among other things. By 2030, this represents an additional 250,000 to 300,000 jobs, according to a study by Clean Energy Canada. By 2030, revenue could be as high as $190 billion from the electrification of transportation.

This is what it means to transition to electric transportation. It's not just about buying electric vehicles. We have formed a coalition to see what the production chain for electric vehicles would look like in Canada, starting with mining and raw materials and working up to assembly and research and development. It means creating a whole new field, a whole new specialty, where Canadians can be world leaders.

In that respect, we have a lot of assets, that is, state-of-the-art research centres. We have Jeff Dahn at Dalhousie University, for example. In Quebec, we have Karim Zaghib at the Institut de recherche d'Hydro-Québec (IREQ). Then we have the Automotive Parts Manufacturers’ Association, or APMA, which has set up a research centre and presented a prototype, the Arrow model.

So Canada has a lot to offer in terms of our raw materials, our knowledge, our universities and our production capacity. A whole new field could be created with Canada as the leader.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

We’ll have to end it there, as we’re out of time, Gabriel.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

The next round will be split between Mr. Falk and Mr. Poilievre.

Mr. Julian, you have the floor.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for being here today. We certainly hope that you and your loved ones are staying safe and healthy during this pandemic.

Mayor Alty, I'd like to start with you. You've confirmed previous testimony we've heard from people such as Mayor Coté from the City of New Westminster and Mayor Hurley from the City of Burnaby about the overall impact on municipal services during this pandemic. Thank you for that.

I have three questions for you specifically about the housing issue, because that is an issue that is top of mind here in the lower mainland of British Columbia. We are simply seeing an increase in homelessness as the pandemic worsens many of the socio-economic conditions that existed prior to it.

You mentioned that there was a federal government-owned building with 36 units that I understand is empty. I'd be interested in knowing how long that federal building has been empty, because obviously 36 units is a considerable start in terms of addressing housing. You've talked about a substantial increase in funding, and I couldn't agree with you more. In fact, $7 billion seems to be a very important first start, as the rapid housing initiative doesn't meet in any way the huge demand of hundreds of thousands of families across the country.

What has been the impact of the lack of housing in Yellowknife now, and what would be the impact if we were talking about a $10-billion, $15-billion or even $20-billion program that puts shovels in the ground and started building affordable housing across the country?

I raise that because in British Columbia, as you're probably aware, the B.C. government has built more housing than every other jurisdiction put together, including the federal government, by simply moving to putting in place modular housing, to make sure that affordable housing units are purchased and put in place.

What would be the impact of the federal government really stepping up and investing double figures in billions of dollars to ensure that housing was available for everybody who needs it?

[Rebecca Alty]

It's called the Aspen Apartments, and it's a 36-unit apartment building. It has been empty since 2019. They were looking to transfer it to a local NGO, but the way the transfer program works, the NGO was going to have to put $4.5 million on their books as a liability. For the NGO, that just wasn't an option, because it was going to impact their borrowing limits, so it didn't go through. Then COVID hit, and the federal government transferred the asset to the territorial government to use right away, from March 2020 until the following March. Following that, our request is that the federal government look to transfer it to a local NGO again and to not go back to use it as federal employee housing, because our private market here is sufficient and federal employees make enough to rent on the private market.

In regard to homelessness and the need for both affordable and supportive housing, with COVID, we were in lockdown. Nobody outside of one's household was supposed to be visiting you, so a lot of the hidden homeless really became obvious as people weren't welcome to come to couch surf and stay with friends and relatives. Therefore, an increase in shelter space is required. The worry is that if community transmission were to happen in Yellowknife, as it did in Nunavut—in Arviat, with its households of 10-plus people—all of a sudden the numbers could skyrocket in just a matter of days. Therefore, it's really important.

It's tough to get those numbers, because with hidden homelessness and couch surfing and the dangers that come with that is the fact that you're putting yourself in vulnerable situations. The housing is really important, and we have 15 families on the wait-list to get housing. That means kids aren't able to get a good education and the stability they need to be good contributors to the economy in the future.

Across the country, I think we all know.