Finance Committee on Dec. 11th, 2020

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Like Mr. Ste-Marie, I find it unfortunate that we couldn't reach an agreement this week to continue the committee meetings over the holidays. As a result, all pre-budget consultations will wrap up in a few minutes. In early fall, the government filibustered the committee. It has now rejected the agreement.

That said, I want to thank all the witnesses here today. I hope that their loved ones remain safe and sound during this pandemic.

I'll start with you, Mr. Viau. This week, the Parliamentary Budget Officer released an important report on the financial and economic considerations of the Trans Mountain pipeline. You spoke about the investments that the government should make, including investments to help the environment and fight climate change.

For Équiterre, does it make sense for the government to invest $14 billion to build the Trans Mountain pipeline instead of focusing on all these environmental priorities?

[Marc-André Viau]

I can easily answer your question. No.

As I said at the end of my presentation, we must start the transition and pick up the pace. We must find other solutions for workers instead of waiting and always having to compensate for the fund managers' increasing withdrawals from certain investments, as we've seen in several cases.

As long as we're headed in this direction, and investors continue to withdraw, we must bridge the gap. In this specific case, Canada has only expenses. There's no revenue, which is an issue.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you.

I'm going to go to Ms. Eaton.

Thank you very much for being here.

I come from British Columbia. The B.C. government has put in place the first provincial ministry for mental health and addictions, and I want to ask whether you and the Canadian Mental Health Association believe that the federal government should be setting up a ministry that is devoted to mental health and addiction issues so that it gets a higher priority in the health care system?

[Margaret Eaton]

I think that would be extraordinary. As we know, depression was at epidemic levels prior to the pandemic, and we know this issue is top of mind for Canadians.

I think seeing the federal government play a stronger role in this area, calling it out and putting a minister in charge and a department, highlights and spotlights the important role that the federal government has, and that could lead to real change. Thank you for that idea.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you very much for your answer. Of course, that would stimulate other provincial governments to follow the lead of the B.C. NDP government as well, so thank you for that.

I'd like to go to Mr. Morrison now.

We have seen unprecedented levels of what the government and federal agencies call “liquidity supports” for the banking sector. Some $750 billion was provided.

In the banking industry, we've seen profits so far during this pandemic of $29 billion among Canada's big banks. A big part of that was as a result of the CMHC, which put in place the IMPP program. The $150 billion that could have been provided in liquidity for co-operative housing, for public housing, and for the affordable housing that your organization is such a strong advocate for, went instead went basically to pad Canada's big banks and their bottom line.

You've talked about an important investment of $5 billion. Do you feel that the government's priorities, rather than bailing out the big banks, should really be focused on using all of the incredible resources of the federal government—$14 billion thrown at Trans Mountain, $750 billion in liquidity supports—to be tackling priorities such as housing and providing the $5 billion that you feel is vital as a first step in meeting housing needs in this country?

Second, I want to ask how you felt about the refusal of Parliament to pass the indigenous-led housing strategy that the NDP brought to the floor of the House of Commons a couple of weeks ago.

[Jeff Morrison]

The $5 billion I was referencing was only in regard to an expansion of the rapid housing initiative that was just announced in September. We believe and think that there can be considerably more—although a great amount of that could be in the form of loans rather than strictly grants.

As I said in my opening statement, housing is health care. Housing is, as reflected by Parliament in 2019, a human right. Therefore, ensuring that every Canadian has housing that is affordable and meets their needs, which is the goal of CMHC to enact by 2030, absolutely has to be a priority.

With respect to indigenous housing, your colleagues at the House of Commons committee on human resources are currently undertaking a study on this very issue of urban, rural and northern indigenous housing. We really hope that this committee will review their report once it's completed and that the report will feed into your recommendations and ultimately into the budget, because, absolutely, as I said, an urban, rural and northern indigenous housing strategy in particular was the massive missing piece in the national housing strategy.

We hope that both of your committees will intersect and that we will ultimately get a strategy that has proper amounts of funding for supports, for capital, and it is also governed and overseen by indigenous people themselves, because that's really key—not just for housing but for reconciliation as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you, both.

We'll go to Mr. Poilievre for a five-minute round, after which Ms. Dzerowicz and Mr. McLeod will split their time.

Pierre, the floor is yours.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Yes.

My question is for Chief Jules, who I am a great admirer of . I'll read a wonderful quote he published in a book recently: “Let me be a free man, free to travel, free to stop, free to work, free to trade where I choose, free to choose my own teachers, free to follow the religion of my fathers, free to talk, think and act for myself”.

Unfortunately, Chief Jules, you and your people have been deprived of these basic freedoms for far too long in a system that imposes paternalistic and colonial powers from Ottawa, powers that remain to this day. You've just given an example of whereby the federal government in Ottawa is taking $700 million of taxes from your reserves...sorry, from your communities across the country, not just reserves, and then requiring that you come to Ottawa and ask for permission to have some of it back.

Can you comment on this nonsensical idea that politicians and bureaucrats in Ottawa believe they can take your money away and then tell you how, and under what conditions, you can have it back?

[C.T. (Manny) Jules]

I think this goes to the heart of not only talking about UNDRIP but actually the whole colonial era under which Canada still operates. You need look no further for systemic racism than the Indian Act. It's one of the earliest pieces of Canadian legislation. It governs the majority of communities right across the country. In 1927, because here in British Columbia we were struggling to have a fair and just settlement to the land question, the federal and provincial governments took away our ability to raise money through taksis. That's the fundamental way in which all governments in this country provide services.

When you look at the fiscal relationship that we have, we're beggars in our own land. What we want to be able to do is share in the bounty of this land so that we can be major contributors, and not only to deal with all of the issues that have been outlined. COVID has exposed the fact that we're the most dependent people in this land. That's led to mental health care issues. That's led to the shortage of housing, health care and all of those aspects.

The only way to change that is through the work of your committee. The finance committee has to give recommendations to the federal government on fixing this imbalance. First nations shouldn't be funded on the basis of programs but should be part of the fiscal makeup, therefore getting the tax revenues that are collected on our lands and within our traditional territories.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Right. The bounty you seek to have is your own. This is not a gift from the government in Ottawa that you're seeking. You're seeking the power to benefit from the bounty that is on your land and produced by your people. Yet all of these years later, we've learned so little that we require your people to come here to Ottawa to ask for what is already yours and what was always yours before the arrival of Europeans.

You had another amazing quote where you were talking about the achievements of indigenous people in the Americas prior to European arrival. You wrote, “Do you think this was all achieved through divine intervention from the gods? Or was it because we somehow evolved into a 'natural' socialist system that lasted thousands of years? Both of these ideas are nonsense.” You also explained how the first peoples of this continent had marvellous systems of free trade and commerce that allowed pipestone to be discovered by later archeologists in places it had never existed. Clearly, your people were engaged in trade well before trade was introduced to the continent by Europeans.

Do you think part of the challenge here is to empower first peoples to have the kinds of economic freedoms that will allow them to prosper without the paternalistic powers of the government in Ottawa?

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

That will have to be the last question, Pierre.

Mr. Jules.

[C.T. (Manny) Jules]

Well, it's obvious that when people say, “Well, I'll pass legislation recognizing first nations people as a result of implementing UNDRIP”, UNDRIP is just one piece of legislation. We have to look at a myriad of legislative changes that have to take place. We have to be a fundamental partner in the fiscal make-up of Canada, not only from an economic standpoint, but a political one.

What COVID has exposed, again, is the dearth of jurisdiction within our communities. We're so dependent on the federal and provincial governments for the provision of services that we have to be beggars.

What we need is not a program, but we need the jurisdiction to be able to look after ourselves. The more we're able to look after ourselves, the less liability the federal and provincial governments will have over this notion of looking after us. We're the best caretakers of ourselves.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you both for that round.

Yes, Mrs. Jansen.

[Tamara Jansen, Conservative, Cloverdale—Langley City, BC]

I have a point of order.

It's probably not quite a point of order, but what is the name of that book that Chief Jules wrote? I'd like to put that on my Christmas list.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Yes, it's called Beyond the Indian Act, and Chief Jules wrote the forward to the book.

It is absolutely a must-read for everybody—Beyond the Indian Act: Restoring Aboriginal Property Rights.

[Tamara Jansen, Conservative, Cloverdale—Langley City, BC]

Super. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

That was really not a point of order, but it was a good point of information, Tamara.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Mr. Chairman, now you know what to get Mrs. Jansen for Christmas. There is still time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

That's true.

Okay. We'll turn to Ms. Dzerowicz and then Mr. McLeod.

Ms. Dzerowicz, the floor is yours.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

I only have 2.5 minutes and two questions, so I am going to be cutting people off right away.

Mr. Viau, you have my first question.

It is extraordinarily important to the residents in my riding of Davenport that we eliminate fossil fuel subsidies as quickly as possible. I agree with them on that. You have asked, in one of your recommendations, for a road map to eliminate ineffective fossil fuel subsidies.

Ignoring any supports for diesel in the north, and any dollars that might go to the oil and gas sector for any innovations or for reducing carbon emissions, would you be able to provide this committee with recommendations of which fossil fuel subsidies you think we should be eliminating as soon as possible?

I'll get you to comment. I don't expect you to have that list right now, but would you be willing to do that and submit that to the committee?

[Marc-André Viau]

Yes, certainly. We and our partners have these lists. We'll be happy to send them to you.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Okay. Thank you so much.

My second question is for Ms. Eaton. Thank you so much for your presentation today.

One of the hardest things for me to address is at the doors in the riding, when I go door-to-door in my riding of Davenport and hear about the great need right across the spectrum. It is about the mental health needs for our children, for our youth, as well as for adults. The need is extraordinary and it's huge.

A couple of years ago, we gave an additional $2 billion at the federal level down to the provinces. I've not been able to find it translated into anything within my Davenport riding. My sense is that we will be providing far more dollars in the future. Assuming that we keep with the current structure, we're going to be providing additional dollars federally to the provinces.

What advice would you have for us when we're sending down the next tranche of federal dollars to the provinces to ensure that it gets to where it needs to go?

[Margaret Eaton]

That is a huge issue. We are unsure where that funding went as well.

In the last mandate letter for the Minister of Health, the minister was urged to set standards in mental health. In doing that, I believe the government was trying to get a handle on what actually was sent out specifically for mental health and trying to ask whether it could set some level—in which case, it would know that the funding would be going to help create that standard so that there would be consistency of care and access across the country.

I believe that urging the government to fulfill that aspect of the mandate letter would be very important.

There is also opportunity, I believe, for the federal government—

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Sorry, I'm just going to cut you off, but I'd be grateful if you could send those recommendations to us. They're very important.

[Margaret Eaton]

Sure. Thank you.