Finance Committee on April 13th, 2021

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you.

Ms. Boraks, I'm really appreciating that you talked about the universal basic income and how important it is. We just got a report, “Building Regional Prosperity in the Alberni Clayoquot Region”. It's part of our poverty reduction plan. In that area of our riding, 27% of people are making a choice of whether they're going to pay their rent, buy food or pay for their hydro. They're not able to do all three. That's completely unacceptable in a country like ours.

Can you talk about how important a universal basic income is to address the concerns of those community members?

[Barbara Boraks]

It's impossible to overstate how important that is. Lack of income leads to so much mental and physical hardship—that's mental and physical damage to their health.

I just want to focus on food insecurity alone for a moment. In 2017-18, 4.4 million people in Canada were living in food insecure households. This is not limited to just people on social support. Sixty percent of households on social support are food insecure, but 65% of households that are food insecure are actually in wage labour.

The stress that this creates for people.... There is actually a new study out of the States showing how poverty is affecting the development of brains in children and infants. We know what the long-term repercussions are when you're food insecure at that age. We have the evidence of the damage it does—not just to a person's soul, but to a person's brain—to live with that constant stress of how to pay the bills and how to eat.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I really appreciate your citing the importance of that for our emotional and spiritual health, as well.

The pandemic has clearly shown the extent to which persons with disabilities, seniors and people living with complex mental health conditions have been largely neglected by government. One of the main focuses and promises of this government during the pandemic is to make sure no one in Canada has fallen through the cracks.

Do you believe that the government has done a good job making sure no one has fallen through the cracks? Can you also talk about the importance of CERB—now the CRB— and how those programs have helped people get through these times, but also about those who have been left out?

[Barbara Boraks]

You're asking a lot. I'll try to get this in in as short a time as possible.

One of the things we have learned from CERB is that governments can respond quickly. When governments need to, they can respond quickly.

What we have also learned through the CERB is that people have fallen through the cracks. The reason they have fallen through the cracks is that the CERB was based on a traditional employment insurance system, and that system was based on a very old-fashioned, 19th-century definition of work. Work is wage labour. The EI system had to put so many bandages on that to start dealing with gig labour and precarious labour, so what the CERB and COVID have indicated is something many people have known for a long time, that the current system of EI and income supports is broken.

The EI system needs to be simplified. It needs some other type of income support to work with it in order to take care of people who do not fall into any of the traditional categories that an EI would fulfill.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you both.

We will now turn to Pat Kelly, followed by Mr. Fraser.

Go ahead, Pat.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Thank you to all. It's good to finally be here.

Thank you to the IT team. I had a chain of strange events that prevented me from getting on to this call.

I would like to ask Mr. Roy to follow up almost where we left off when you were at the committee in December. Back then, you said that if we were going to save the summer 2021 festival and event season, a big chunk of the population would have to be vaccinated by this summer. Could you comment on the current state of vaccinations and what it means for this 2021 summer season?

[Martin Roy]

The problem is that we are in a state of uncertainty. On the one hand, Quebec Premier François Legault says all Quebeckers who want the vaccine will be able to receive a first dose by June 24. On the other hand, Trudeau says all Canadians who want the vaccine will receive it by the end of September. That should give us the opportunity to hold events safely in July or early August. However, this is not certain.

We are trying to get information from the various public health branches so that we can have more predictability and make decisions, but we are in the dark.

There's also this third wave that's starting, and we don't know how long it will last.

This brings me back to the fact that there are solutions and we need to explore them. One of the things that comes to mind is the vaccine passport. It's not true that a piece of paper that looks like a coat check coupon will allow people to travel and get the benefits that are reserved for people who are vaccinated.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

That's just it. With all due respect to the comments of Premier Legault, it is the federal government that is trying to procure vaccines and has done an inadequate job if we're going to get to everybody. It takes two doses to vaccinate, and I don't see how.... I would love to see everybody in Quebec and indeed the rest of Canada get their two doses by June and have a summer festival season, but there doesn't appear to be any chance that we're going to get the two doses for everybody who wants to be fully immunized.

In the meantime, you spoke of maximizing the use of all the tools available. In your last visit, we talked a little about rapid results tests and the proper deployment of them. You said that if they were to become widely available, they could be used to help not only festivals and events, but restaurants and other recreational activities to take place. What's been the progress since your December appearance on rapid results tests?

[Martin Roy]

There has not been much progress because there is not a lot of interest from provincial governments and the federal government in using rapid tests in this context. We have been approached by rapid test providers and we are at the outset very supportive of this solution. However, if we don't have discussions with government and public health officials, we won't be allowed to receive more people.

We don't see the point of going out and buying rapid tests if, at the end of the process, we can only accommodate 100, 125, or 250 people. The rapid tests should allow us to hold larger gatherings. But in order to have that opportunity, we need to talk with governments and provincial and municipal public health authorities.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

This will be the last question, Pat.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

In response to my first question, you talked about making maximum use of all the tools available and said that the tools exist to help salvage some kind of a season this year.

Could you comment on what you think might be possible and whether or not any of these steps require action from the federal government? Here's a chance for giving further recommendations to the government.

[Martin Roy]

There needs to be some leadership when it comes to rapid tests, which we just talked about, and vaccine passports. Will the provinces really come up with different independent solutions in terms of the vaccine passports or does the Government of Canada need to assess this issue quickly?

Obviously, not all of us will be vaccinated by September or will have received both doses. However, once we receive the first dose, we'll have some protection and our health care system won't be under the same pressure. We may then be able to resume a number of activities as early as June or July.

For example, perhaps we could reserve part of a field or park for a group of people who have been vaccinated and we could accommodate a large number of those people. Another part of the field could be reserved for a smaller group of people and there would be more control over safety measures. We must be part of these types of discussions, especially when it comes to a real consideration of the vaccine passport.

I read that there have been discussions and decisions regarding this issue in Great Britain. There have also been discussions about the vaccine passport in Denmark and in several other countries. In Canada, we must consider the same issues as these countries.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you, all.

We will turn to Mr. Fraser, who is splitting his time with Peter, followed by Ms. May.

Go ahead, Sean.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I will direct my questions to Margie Grant-Walsh, from Big Brothers Big Sisters, who happens to be just down the road from me here, in Pictou County, Nova Scotia.

The testimony from you and your colleague focused, in part, on the stressors that have been exacerbated by the pandemic for young people in our community. I would hazard to guess that we have talked to some of the same young people.

I remember, in the early days of the pandemic, there was a lot of fear about what this public health emergency might mean. Over the course of the year, people became robbed of their community activities or sports teams at school, their proms, seeing their friends, or experiences in the classroom. You're absolutely right to point out how much this has impacted the mental health and well-being of young people.

We put support towards the Kids Help Phone, I think in late March of last year, because we saw a serious surge in the need for mental health supports for young people.

One of the things I hear about, whenever we talk about telehealth or virtual health, is reservations from the public when they hear about 1-800 lines or seeing somebody through a screen when they may need access to a person. Certainly there are people who will need that in-person care for their mental health supports.

I'm curious, from your experience, whether you can highlight whether these investments in the Kids Help Phone or other similar services can help an organization like yours connect with people in real life?

[Margie Grant-Walsh]

Thanks, Mr. Fraser.

Actually, they really can. The investments that go toward, for example, the Kids Help Phone have certainly impacted local organizations right across the country. What tends to happen when they get a call is that they then refer to a local agency.

You commented particularly on the increase of isolation and mental health issues. As a matter of fact, we're finding that these kids who have been isolated, particularly in rural areas, really require that intentional mentorship in their lives. Without it, they're really lost.

Here in Pictou County I can comment from my experience. We have no public transportation. There are also connectivity issues in some of the outlying areas. Many of our clients don't have access to mobile devices, whether it's a tablet or a telephone, so of course being able to connect with their mentors has been very difficult.

The other thing we've been seeing, too, is in our schools. Of course, when the pandemic first started, many of the schools were very uncomfortable—we all were, really—not knowing what to expect and how this was going to lay out. Schools were very hesitant at first to let us in. In Pictou County, we are in 19 schools. Multiply that by the 102 agencies in the country. Many of those kids have not had access to their mentors.

We know that 42% of youths said their mentor helped them feel less isolated during the pandemic. We know that 70% of youths who had regular contact with their mentor said it helped them feel less worried or anxious, and 44% of youths engaged with Big Brothers Big Sisters of Canada reported feelings of depression versus 51% among other youths. We know that having a caring adult in a child's or youth's life really makes a difference.

People sometimes tend to think of us as the “fluffy” organization, but we know that every dollar that is spent toward mentorship programs is reinvested back into the community at 23:1. It's very important.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you both.

I'll give one question to you, Mr. Fragiskatos.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

My question will be for Mr. Chater, who I know has London ties. If there is any remaining time, Mr. Chair, it's the same question for Mr. Berman.

The COVID-19 emergency response programs have gone a long way for not-for-profit organizations. We've heard that at length at this committee. Of course, there are remaining gaps. When you're building the plane and flying it at the same time, there will be gaps.

From your perspective, again to begin with Mr. Chater, what is the most obvious gap that exists that the federal government can act on and deal with?

[W. Matthew Chater]

That's a great question. I appreciate it.

I'd say the most pressing issue would be the element of the shared proposal that we've sent in to government around transformation of the respective federations as well as the not-for-profit sector. This pandemic has certainly highlighted a number of challenges that we have within organizational structures: how we approach service delivery; how we collaborate and work together, recognizing the various values that we, as our collective organizations, have in community; and how we ensure that those dollars continue to go right to the front lines to be able to support the community.

In the proposal we put forward, we have a significant number of dollars, not only for the 18-month transition or bridge funding—that short-term, momentary support—but also for the support for vitality, so that as we navigate through the third wave and as we prepare to be a more resilient community and a resilient sector of community services organizations, we're prepared for that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you, all.

I give two and a half minutes to Ms. May, followed by the same with Mr. Johns.

Elizabeth.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Thank you so much, Wayne, for the chance to ask questions of this really amazing panel.

As someone who still misses Pictou County, I find it really hard to move on, but I need to ask Barbara Boraks some more questions, if that's okay.

On the basic income side, I was fascinated by your reference to the employment insurance system being designed around a 19th-century version of the world of work. What I wanted to ask is whether the case for a basic income is bolstered if we look ahead a bit, instead of in the rear-view mirror, at what artificial intelligence is going to mean for the world of work. I've seen some advocates make a link between the importance of having some guaranteed livable income or basic income as we move into a very different economy. Not everybody is necessarily going to be working if they're replaced by, I don't want to say robots because it begins to sound too new-agey, but definitely with artificial intelligence. What is your reaction to that theory?

Thank you.

[Barbara Boraks]

The beauty of basic income is that it provides a mechanism whenever the nature of economies or jobs is changing.

The movement towards robots and AI is a particular example. Another extraordinary example is the prediction that green jobs are going to be growing at a huge rate in Canada. I think it was noted that one of the highest growth rates for jobs is going to be in Alberta.

However, these jobs require a different skill set. How, then, do you transition jobs, for example, for people working in an oil-based economy into green jobs and a higher-skill set economy?

That's where basic income kicks in. It gives that buffer for individuals, economies and governments to allow people to retrain into different kinds of jobs. AI is one of them. Green jobs is another. Another area no one has really touched on in this discussion yet is how basic income can help build capacity in farms and in rural areas, because the EI system does not work for them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Please be very quick, Elizabeth.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Very quickly, in terms of where you see the world of work moving, if basic income bolsters us through transitions, how quickly should we...? If we had had it in place before COVID, we obviously would have been better off than in trying all the band-aid programs.

I know that wasn't very quick. I'm sorry, Mr. Chair.

[Barbara Boraks]

For a quick answer, right now in Canada 37% of workers are precariously employed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you, Barbara. You were quick at your end and Elizabeth wasn't, but that's dandy.

We're turning to Mr. Johns, followed by Mr. Falk.