Evidence of meeting #34 for Finance in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was passengers.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB
You said no amount of subsidy will solve the problem. When you said that, did you mean the problem of non-compliance with the law in terms of refunds, or were there broader industry issues that you were referring to?
President, Air Passenger Rights
On the broader issue of non-compliance with the law—not just with the refunds, but overall on passenger rights—what we already see is that when a passenger can choose between a European carrier, which is bound by European laws and regulations, which is a gold standard, or a Canadian airline, they will choose the European airline. We are going to see that trend intensify, especially with the U.S. also perhaps tending toward improving passenger rights.
We have very strong competition in that regard and we need to up our game if we would like Canadian airlines to become competitive.
Conservative
Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB
What do you expect some of these exceptions to be? Whether it's speculation or whether you already know, could you list what you expect the airlines to invoke, or in this case Air Canada to invoke, for a non-refund?
President, Air Passenger Rights
We expect that if there is a new wave of the current pandemic or if there is another pandemic or if there is a situation like September 11, they might try to use those provisions to refuse to refund passengers their own money for flights that never took place.
This is in sharp contrast with the U.S. standard. In the U.S., after September 11, airlines were refunding passengers. Even during the pandemic, the U.S. Department of Transportation very quickly gave marching orders to airlines that they must refund passengers.
Conservative
Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB
You hinted in your opening statement that you weren't sure that Air Canada really needed or is particularly seeking this deal, yet the deal exists. Air Canada was quite well capitalized from the outset, but the effects on the industry are catastrophic.
Would it be your position that the refunds should have been made in full to everyone before negotiations even began for a bailout?
President, Air Passenger Rights
It's not that Air Canada wanted this deal; the question is whether they needed it objectively. That's unclear.
Certainly refunds should have been happening immediately, as the flights were being cancelled, as soon as March and April of 2020. There would have been probably way more public sympathy, public appetite, to provide some financial relief to airlines.
Conservative
Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB
Right.
Indeed, we need an airline industry in Canada, particularly in all kinds of communities that just rely on it.
Do you think it is necessary to bail out the industry? Can this industry finance its way through the crisis while being obliged to refund its passengers?
President, Air Passenger Rights
It's quite possible that some airlines might need some financial assistance to weather this storm. However, what is clear is that Canada does not need airlines that disobey the law. Any kind of corporation that is trying to make a profit outside the rules of the game, outside the fundamental rules of capitalism, which is based on respect of private property, becomes a burden for taxpayers. While it might take some money to replace them, they have to be replaced with corporations and with management of corporations that play by the rules, because that is how society is going to prosper. It's when everybody is obeying the law.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter
Thank you both.
We'll go to Ms. Damoff for five minutes, and then we'll have one question from Ms. May and one from Mr. Cumming.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Thank you, Chair. It's an absolute pleasure to join this committee today.
Thank you to both of our witnesses.
Ms. Cameron, I thoroughly enjoyed your testimony, and I now know why your MP speaks so highly of you. It was really helpful and speaks to my heart.
I firmly believe that without safe, affordable housing, you can't do anything else. Everything flows from that. You can't get a job, care for your kids properly or get an education. Your testimony really resonated.
I wonder if you could speak a little bit more about it. If we're going to have a sound, sustainable, solid recovery, how important is it for us to invest in housing and the resilient communities that you talk about?
Chair of Board of Directors, Antigonish Affordable Housing Society
I think you said it yourself: Housing is the basic right that everybody needs to live. Without it, you don't have anything.
As you said, if there is no address; you can't get funds or an education. Then, from a health perspective, so many people are living in very unhealthy situations, physically unhealthy as well as mentally and socially unhealthy. When there are drugs and violence in the area, that just exacerbates things.
To me, it's something that everyone needs. It's obvious, if you look at our health statistics, that people on lower income, living in poor conditions, are much more likely to be sick. They're much more likely to put a greater burden on the health care system, and similarly the justice system, and to drop out of school. I understand that every time a family moves, a child loses three months of school just from making that move. It affects every aspect of life, and it is one of the most basic things. Food, water, shelter and clothing are your basic rights, so that is needed.
The homeless situation and the lack of affordable housing are the tip of the iceberg when we're looking at poverty. That's what we see. Those are the symptoms of poverty.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
I think this pandemic has shone a light on what people like you have known about for years. It's shone a light on how those individuals who are homeless or without safe and affordable housing have been more at risk during the pandemic.
I was absolutely fascinated by your having a community navigator. Sean and I were on the status of women committee together when we looked at transitional housing and the need for more transitional housing for women. I've spoken to a woman locally, Emily O'Brien, who was in prison, and of the need for people who are coming out of prison to have transitional housing. That community navigator seems like the type of thing—incorporated into housing—that is a recipe for success.
How critical is it that we take a more holistic approach to housing as well, and include transitional housing as we're moving out of this pandemic?
Chair of Board of Directors, Antigonish Affordable Housing Society
It is absolutely critical. With our model of focusing on the social, environmental and fiscal, it is very important. That's a holistic approach.
With regard to the community navigator, the role is to assist the tenants to access the resources they need in the community to live well. I live very close to public housing and I see the problems. There are 700 units, and one person said that she used the navigator for the.... A navigator for 700 people is just not sustainable. People are trying to get out of the public housing and come to us because it is a good safe place to live.
Everybody needs support at some point. If you have good, affordable, safe housing, it breaks the cycle of poverty for many people. It helps them to move out. We've had a couple of success stories—single mothers finishing education, getting a better job and moving on—and that's the sort of thing you need. However, that support is key. Putting a roof over somebody's head and then leaving them on their own is not going to solve it.
People have various levels of need. We don't provide counselling and that sort of thing; we connect them to those resources, and sometimes it's a very simple thing that they need. To be sustainable, I think it is extremely important.
Liberal
Green
Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC
Thank you for your generosity, Mr. Chair.
To Colleen Cameron, I want to ask you a question about affordable housing. I know you have deep roots in the Antigonish Movement and the work of Monsignor Moses Coady. Specifically, do you think the co-operative housing model would be useful when we're looking at new ways to make sure we get people housed?
Chair of Board of Directors, Antigonish Affordable Housing Society
As you said, I'm a big proponent of co-ops and the co-operative movement. I grew up in that movement.
There's a role for different forms of affordable housing. We didn't go down the route of co-op housing. We are a charitable organization providing affordable housing. In many co-op housing situations, people are now renting. In the past, if you think of the Antigonish Movement and Tompkinsville down in Reserve Mines in Cape Breton, you see that people co-operated to build their homes, which they then ended up owning, which was equity. That's a very different sort of model. It's a very good one. It's one of a number of models that would be needed to provide affordable housing for everyone. I don't see one solution. I see different models.
Co-operative housing at the moment has been struggling. It's a challenge for some to improve and move on. There are a lot of different things there. If people could end up owning them, that would be fabulous.
Conservative
Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB
Mr. Chair, he had a three o'clock hard stop in another meeting.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter
We should have put him first. I should have moved him up.
With that, we will suspend for the next panel.
I wish to thank the two witnesses for appearing. We got as many questions as we normally do, so that's a good thing. Thank you both for your presentations today.
We'll suspend for two minutes and go to the next panel..
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter
We will reconvene the meeting.
This is meeting number 34 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Finance.
As all of the witnesses know, we're doing a study on COVID-19 spending programs and related monetary policy. I want to thank all of the witnesses for coming.
We'll start with Jacques Létourneau, the president of CSN. Welcome. Please keep your comments to about five minutes.
Jacques Létourneau President, Confédération des syndicats nationaux
Good afternoon.
I'm trying to get my camera to work, but I'm hearing a terrible echo in my earpiece.
Can you hear me?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter
Are the translators hearing okay, Mr. Clerk?
They are. Okay, go ahead.
President, Confédération des syndicats nationaux
Thank you very much for this invitation.
Unfortunately, there's an echo in my earpiece. It's a bit annoying. I like to hear what I'm saying, but not that much.
Do you think it can be fixed?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter
Jacques, why don't we see if the IT people can fix that? We'll go to the next witness and then come back to you.
Mr. Clerk, could you have the IT people work on that?