Evidence of meeting #34 for Finance in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was passengers.
A video is available from Parliament.
6:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter
We'll now go to Mr. Kelly for five minutes, and then on to Ms. Dzerowicz.
Go ahead, Pat.
6:05 p.m.
Conservative
Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB
Thank you very much.
I don't like to use committee time to debate other members of the committee, but Mr. Fragiskatos made a number of comments in his intervention that were quite patently false and demand correction.
Members of the opposition—certainly not Conservative members of the opposition—at no point opposed the emergency aid measures during this crisis. In fact, it was quite the opposite. It was, in fact, the Conservative opposition that quite quickly understood the insufficiency of some of the support measures, including the wage subsidy as it was initially rolled out, and we spent the early months of the pandemic working constructively to solve many of the problems in delivering these aid measures. Austerity, whether stated or unstated, was therefore never part of the Conservative response to the crisis.
What the Conservative opposition opposes is further spending of, say, up to $100 billion in further undefined stimulus, especially at a time when the savings rates of Canadians and many businesses, although not all, are extremely high. We expect that there will be economic recovery if we can ever get our people vaccinated.
That needed to be said in response to the incorrect characterization made by Mr. Fragiskatos.
I'm going to continue with—
6:10 p.m.
Liberal
6:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter
I don't want to get into a debate here. There's a difference of opinion, certainly. What's your point of order?
6:10 p.m.
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON
I promise that it's not a point of debate, Mr. Chair. I just want it on record that I disagree very respectfully with my colleague Mr. Kelly.
6:10 p.m.
Liberal
6:10 p.m.
Conservative
Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB
We've both been at the committee for a long time and long enough to know what has actually been said by each member.
I'll go to Mr. Sullivan. I would like to get him into the conversation.
Perhaps you can comment on the importance to your members of having a data-driven plan to safely and permanently reopen the economy.
6:10 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Halifax Chamber of Commerce
If you mean by “data-driven” that we could have clarity on what the expectations are for fully reopening the economy and fully reopening the borders and what the levels of virus need to be to allow for the economy to reopen more fully, clearly our members need that kind of information, and they need it soon.
I'll refer to Ms. Baker. We represent a number of hotels down here, and they are deciding at this point whether to open and hire staff. They are unable to do that because they don't know what the plans are, even though the great majority of the Canadian population will be vaccinated by the end of June, according to the government. We look forward to those vaccinations, but it would be very, very important to have clarity on the opening of the borders—the opening of our provincial borders, obviously, by our provincial governments—and any other information that can help us plan for the summer and then ultimately for the fall.
6:10 p.m.
Conservative
Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB
Indeed, we all would like everybody to be vaccinated and get to that point, but we're quite far off from that. I think we're at 2% immunity right now, in terms of two doses per person, so as we see, we risk losing another summer season.
Could you comment on your members? We've heard testimony at this committee about the number of small businesses that the pandemic threatens to wipe out. We've heard that 60,000 small businesses are already lost—that statistic is a few weeks old now—and perhaps as many as 180,000 that are at risk.
How many of your members do you think are in a desperate fight for survival, in the hope that we can have a safe reopening amid an immune population?
6:10 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Halifax Chamber of Commerce
Clearly, Nova Scotia and much of Atlantic Canada are in a slightly different position than other areas of the country.
That said, any businesses that rely on crowds or on travel or tourism are suffering at a significant level and expect to continue suffering well into the fall. I don't know that I want to put a number on it. I've heard it quoted in Nova Scotia that 85% of the economy is doing okay, but that the 15% that represent tourism, travel and hospitality are simply desperate.
We're seeing restaurants close weekly, even in this market where we're able to go to restaurants, and as I mentioned, we're seeing hotels question whether they should open their doors for the coming season.
6:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter
We will have to end it there. I informed Mr. Kelly earlier that he would have to take over as chair about now.
Pat, there are three rounds left. They are of five minutes each. Ms. Dzerowicz is first, Mr. Barrett is next and Ms. Damoff will wrap it up at the end.
Before I leave for another commitment that I can't break, I want to thank the witnesses for their presentations. I think it was a really interesting change.
Pat, I'll turn it over to you.
6:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Pat Kelly
All right.
With that, I think I've already forgotten the order here. We have Ms. Dzerowicz, Mr. Barrett and—
6:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Pat Kelly
—Ms. Damoff. I think Ms. Jansen is going to speak for Mr. Barrett.
I'll let Ms. Dzerowicz take it away. You have five minutes, please.
6:15 p.m.
Liberal
Julie Dzerowicz Liberal Davenport, ON
Thank you so much, Mr. Vice-Chair.
I want to thank all the witnesses for their excellent presentations.
I'm going to direct my first couple of questions to Mr. Hemmings. I want to talk to you about employment and jobs.
On Friday, Stats Canada reported that employment numbers rose by 303,000 in March in Canada, and we're within 1.5% of our pre-COVID, February 2020, job levels. How well is Canada doing compared to other OECD countries with respect to job recovery?
April 15th, 2021 / 6:15 p.m.
Head of Canada Desk, Economics Department, Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development
I think it's doing reasonably well, to be honest. Some OECD countries that are extremely reliant on tourism, such as Greece and so on, are really struggling, and there are some regions within Europe that are having a very, very tough time with these hard-hit sectors.
There is also a bit of uncertainty. A certain amount of the employment is being supported, for instance, through a wage subsidy scheme here in Canada, and elsewhere as well. In a way, the uncertainty is that as that support is withdrawn, what are you left with? The key thing is aiming for an appropriate speed of support so that businesses don't go under unnecessarily.
6:15 p.m.
Liberal
Julie Dzerowicz Liberal Davenport, ON
Then would you say we're doing fairly well? I think the supports are there, and they're there because we learned from the 2008 recession that you have to support your businesses to be able to have a foundation from which to pivot.
Anyway, thank you for that.
My next question to you is about the structural changes that you talked about in terms of the EI system. You also made a comment about a guaranteed basic income model and you talked about how many people worry about it because of the cost as well as how it might discourage people from working. I always worry when people say that, because it feeds into those who are the detractors of a guaranteed basic income model. You'd probably find hundreds and hundreds of other people who would say the opposite of that as well, so I want to ask you if you think it would be fair to say that the effectiveness of some sort of a guaranteed basic income program really comes down to how the program is designed.
6:15 p.m.
Head of Canada Desk, Economics Department, Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development
Yes, sure.
6:15 p.m.
Head of Canada Desk, Economics Department, Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development
I think sometimes people talk about slightly different things when they talk about guaranteed income—
6:15 p.m.
Liberal
6:15 p.m.
Head of Canada Desk, Economics Department, Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development
They do, a little bit, yes. The absolutely pure idea of it is that absolutely everybody gets the same amount of money, without any withholding of it depending on income.
In practical terms, when this is talked about in Canadian policy circles, you actually talk about a system under which this income is withdrawn as you have your own earnings, and that's really a lot more like traditional social welfare, you know. It's a means-tested benefit, in a sense, and you face the same challenges, such as at what rate do you claw back the benefit? The slower you claw back the benefit, the more expensive it is. The faster you claw it back, the cheaper it is, but you have work incentives.
6:20 p.m.
Liberal
Julie Dzerowicz Liberal Davenport, ON
It looks as though it depends on how you define it as well as on how you actually design the program.
In any case, I do have to run to one more question. One of the things that Benjamin Tal over at CIBC indicated is that Canadians are sitting on up to about $100 billion of savings. A lot of people are kind of sitting on some money. As you know, Canada has a goal of reaching net zero emissions by 2050. What are your thoughts on how we encourage spending in a more sustainable way?
6:20 p.m.
Head of Canada Desk, Economics Department, Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development
That's a good question. I suppose a very broad answer to that from the economist camp would be to make sure that you have a tax system that reflects the price of carbon, and if you have that, then in principle, with the prices of the goods and services, people are incentivized to turn towards greener products. That's not the only answer, but yes, it's a broad tool that does work to an extent.
6:20 p.m.
Liberal
Julie Dzerowicz Liberal Davenport, ON
Would you say that a price on pollution, such as we have, would be one of the key ways in which we would be able to encourage more sustainable growth?