Evidence of meeting #40 for Finance in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was kpmg.
A video is available from Parliament.
5:40 p.m.
The Clerk
There is no room next week for additional meetings whatsoever.
I tried on Monday. The status of women committee already took the spot that was available Monday evening, so there's no more room on Monday. I looked at the services and I asked my management and there's simply no room next week for additional meetings at any time.
5:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter
Okay.
We're still on the motion, then. We'll go to Mr. Fast, Mr. Fragiskatos and Mr. Kelly, and then I'd like to call the question.
5:40 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC
Mr. Chair, let me start by saying I've always appreciated your even-handedness at committee, so this is not a challenge to you. I do disagree with you, though. This motion from Mr. Fraser is a very significant one, and it was sprung upon us today. Quite frankly, we have these witnesses here on a very important study, and I'm sensing we've just scratched the surface with them. If we have another 20 minutes, I think we can use it productively to get additional information that's really going to be helpful in crafting the report that comes out of this.
5:40 p.m.
Liberal
5:40 p.m.
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON
Chair, I don't dismiss for a moment the fact that we've heard important things today. As you said, we can have other meetings on this after we deal with the BIA, but as I remind my colleagues, especially those who sit on the subcommittee with me and with us, we agreed that this meeting would be two hours. We have now exceeded that. We do not need to have a notice of motion given on matters of committee business. My colleagues are experienced and will know that. I'm surprised that they're raising a point of view to the contrary.
We do have an important issue to deal with, which Mr. Fraser has put forward, and I think we should move in the direction of looking at it.
5:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter
Mr. Kelly, the last word goes to you. Then I hope we can go to a vote.
5:40 p.m.
Conservative
5:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter
All right, we'll go to a recorded vote. Mr. Clerk, do you want to call the vote?
5:45 p.m.
The Clerk
Do you want me to do it, or would you like the...?
5:45 p.m.
The Clerk
Mr. Julian moves “that the meeting be extended to continue the questioning of witnesses until six o'clock.”
Is that right?
5:45 p.m.
Liberal
Annie Koutrakis Liberal Vimy, QC
I have a point of order, Mr. Chair. Can we ask the witnesses if they're available to stay any longer? I mean, I don't know if they have other commitments, but we're assuming they can stay.
5:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter
It's only 15 more minutes on that end. I don't see them jumping up and down.
Ms. Dzerowicz, we're into a vote, so we can't take a point of order.
5:45 p.m.
Liberal
5:45 p.m.
Liberal
May 6th, 2021 / 5:45 p.m.
President, Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada
Mr. Chair, I know it's totally inappropriate for me to enter into the debate, which is why I waited until now, but we've been sitting in front of our computers since 3:00 p.m. If we're going to continue, even for another 15 minutes, I'll require a health break.
5:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter
Okay. You take a health break, Ms. Daviau. That's fine. We'll see where the questions go.
Anybody who wants to take a health break, go ahead, and we'll go to questions.
Who wants to be the first one up?
We'll get time for one question each from the Conservatives, Liberals, Bloc and NDP. I'll figure that time out when I divide it down there. Who wants to go for the Conservatives? Is it Mr. Kelly or Mr. Fast?
5:45 p.m.
Conservative
5:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter
Okay. How could I get it wrong?
Go ahead, Ted, and it will be about three minutes, I think.
5:45 p.m.
Conservative
Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Senator, I'd like to ask you a question. In the Prime Minister's 2019 mandate letter to the Minister of National Revenue, the minister was instructed to “seek new ways to counter tax avoidance and evasion by wealthy individuals”, “enhance our existing tax avoidance and evasion whistleblower programs”, and “look for more opportunities to invest resources that help crack down on tax evaders”.
When you look at the last five years, how would you describe the government's progress in these areas?
5:45 p.m.
Percy E. Downe
Well, it's much more than five years. It goes back at least 20 or 25 years. We're just finding out about the leaks over the last number of years. These disclosures virtually didn't happen until recent years, and then the CRA had to adjust to that new reality, as did the government.
For example, with regard to the Liechtenstein list of disclosures of 106 Canadians who had accounts there, that leaker sold the list to the Government of Germany, and then the Government of Germany offered it to other countries that had citizens on the list, so the Government of Germany gave it to the Government of Canada.
The point I would make is the one I made in the opening remarks: Look at other countries and what they have done. I think the Australians were the first off the mark. They quickly recognized that once you start charging people and convicting people and see names of friends and neighbours going to jail, the appetite to invest and to hide money overseas drops dramatically.
It's that culture of resources and criminal activity that has been under the radar screen. It's been going on for a very long time.
5:45 p.m.
Conservative
Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB
Thank you.
What would your recommendation be to correct that problem?
5:45 p.m.
Percy E. Downe
There are a number of things that have been done. Originally I was part of the group that felt we needed more funding for CRA. The funding has been given over the last number of budgets. Granted, all of it hasn't been spent, but it's a significant influx of funding. We find that some of that has not gone towards overseas tax evasion, as the CRA said it was going to. I've come to the conclusion of late that we need supervision over the CRA and that it should come from the Department of Finance.
We saw in the recent budget that the Minister of Finance—on her own initiative, I understand—did the most significant advance on tax evasion, the beneficial ownership initiative, on which she indicates that over the next four years they've committed $2.1 million to set it up. If this can be done sooner, it's even better.
As others have mentioned, we need co-operation of the provinces, but this is the most significant development to fight tax evasion in the years I've been looking at this file. We just need to have it completed and implemented.
