Finance Committee on May 17th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Yes. Go ahead, Christine.

[Christine Jodoin, Director General, Biologics Manufacturing Centre Project, National Research Council of Canada]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

On a practical basis, to give an example of the interpretation, under this current authority NRC is able to do R and D and production of an experimental nature. Right now, for example, our human health therapeutics research centre can do production on a 20-litre, 50-litre, 500-litre bioreactor capacity basis. Depending on the material in question, this can be up to 250,000 doses a month, for example. This is under the current authority.

With the biologics manufacturing centre, the capacity that we are building and designing is to produce with the capacity of a 500-litre bioreactor and a 2,000-litre bioreactor, and thus a total bioreactor capacity of 2,500 litres. As Stephen said, this is the equivalent of approximately 4,000 litres of production capacity a month, an equivalent of two million doses a month, with the caveat, of course, that it depends on the vaccine type and the manufacturing yield.

This is just to give you the comparative notion that this is larger-scale manufacturing. That's why we're proceeding, to ensure certainty that we can manufacture at that scale, with the biologics manufacturing centre.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you.

I have one more question, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Just to interrupt for a second, Peter, we'll have to try, for the next three or four questions, to be fairly brief. We are going to have to cut this panel fairly shortly, because we have another bunch of witnesses in the wings for the next panel.

We'll have to ask the last three divisions to come another day on this one.

Go ahead, Peter.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

This is on the public-private partnership.

The NRC, then, would be able, through this legislation, to vastly expand, as you mentioned, with a bioreactor of 2,000 litres and a vast expansion of vaccine production. It also, however, basically gives a portion of the NRC to the private sector, so that the private sector, as part of this new entity, would be able to profit from the NRC's work. Am I understanding this correctly?

[Christine Jodoin]

Stephen, would you like me to answer the question?

[Stephen Scott]

Yes, go ahead, Christine. Thank you.

[Christine Jodoin]

We're currently assessing the right model for the future operation and governance of the facility. The endgame is that the mandate of the centre is public good and to meet pandemic emergencies and always be ready for them. With the public good perspective in mind, we are looking at various models. There are certainly for-profit but also not-for-profit models.

As part of looking at the assessment, we have done preliminary consultations, in the fall. The public good was strongly identified there, and not to compete with the private sector. That gives us an indication of some models we need to consider.

We have also set up a project advisory board made up of members from the biomanufacturing sector, with big industry, small SMEs, academia. We're getting their input as well on the model.

We will also be calling for an expression of interest later this summer to really understand from the sector what they think will be a workable model in terms of making sure we can deliver on the public good mandate of the facility and make sure it is also sustainable into the future.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Mr. Fast is next, followed by Ms. Jansen, and then we'll have to close it off.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Ms. Jodoin, you just used the term “public good”. I assume that equates with the national interest.

[Christine Jodoin]

That's correct.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Okay, thank you for clarifying that.

I just want to say to both of you, Mr. Scott and Ms. Jodoin, thank you for not precluding the involvement of the private sector in delivering vaccines. Partnerships are often the best way of delivering for Canadians. I'm not surprised that Mr. Julian has a different take on this, but I'm a strong believer in public-private partnerships.

Would the amendments you're making today in any way prevent a company such as Providence from leaving Canada and being able to actually put down roots in Canada by finding a partner within government that is going to support their efforts to deliver a solution to the vaccine shortages we have?

[Christine Jodoin]

First of all, the centre is being designed and set up with a cell-based biologics vaccine platform, one that we believe when we're going to look at collaborating with vaccine sponsors is the basis in terms of making sure that their vaccine platform is aligned with a vaccine platform that is being built for the centre. That's one point.

With respect to Providence, I think what I would say is that I would have to defer to our colleagues at Innovation, Science and Economic Development. They are developing a biomanufacturing strategy. We're one part of the strategy. We're going to be here to collaborate with vaccine sponsors that can help us in being ready for any pandemic emergency to produce cell-based biologics vaccines.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Okay, so you've chosen cell-based biologics as the platform that, if you were going to do a public-private partnership, the partner who comes in would have to be participating in a similar type of model. Is that correct?

[Christine Jodoin]

To clarify, the vaccine sponsor who we would contract with and produce a vaccine would need to have that platform.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Yes.

[Christine Jodoin]

However, in terms of partners, when you look at partners, they can be to help govern the facility itself and to operate it even with not having that experience in being the vaccine sponsor of the cell biologics. It's about your experience in operating a facility of this nature, operating it and governing it.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Ms. Jansen, you have the last question.

[Tamara Jansen, Conservative, Cloverdale—Langley City, BC]

I understand that basically what you're doing now is actually changing your mission statement, if you want to call it that, from one of a public institution to one where you're going to be actually competing with the private sector, and at the same time, you also got $126 million to build your production facility.

When we see a company like Providence not getting anything but the runaround and now leaving Canada, I'm concerned that the way these amendments are written, you aren't actually obligated to even work with the private sector, yet you're being handed a lot of money and now you're going to be competing with the private sector.

I wonder if you could speak to that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Whoever wants to take that, some of that relates to decisions of ministers, which we don't expect either of you to answer, but as it relates to this division, go ahead.

[Christine Jodoin]

Stephen, I can answer.

[Stephen Scott]

Go ahead, Christine.

[Christine Jodoin]

Just to clarify, as I said before, the mandate is that the BMC, the biologics manufacturing centre, will have a public-good mandate. It's not intended to compete with the private sector but to actually complement it, and complement it in such fashion that we'll be ready to manufacture and provide the capacity to manufacture in response to public health needs when the domestic market is unable to meet it. That's one thing.

Secondly, the key thing will be that the costs are recoverable. What that means is that while the government is giving us funds to build the facility, in terms of the production we will make sure that, as it is producing, the cost to produce will be recovered.

[Tamara Jansen, Conservative, Cloverdale—Langley City, BC]

Does that mean, then, you're only going to be producing when the private sector is not able to manage that? Therefore, you have this huge facility, it's there, but it will only be utilized for manufacturing when the private sector is not able to meet demands.