Finance Committee on Dec. 1st, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number eight of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Finance.

Pursuant to the order of reference of November 19, 2020, the committee is meeting on its study of the pre-budget consultations in advance of the 2021 budget.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of September 23, 2020. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. So you are aware, the webcast will always show the person speaking, rather than the entirety of the committee.

I think almost everyone is familiar with the rules, so I'll bypass them to save time. We're tight for time, with four witnesses in an hour.

I would like to welcome our witnesses. We have four with us today.

I want to first thank most of you in today's appearance who provided submissions prior to August 15. We appreciate that very much.

We will start with the Canadian Nurses Association. We have Mr. Villeneuve, chief executive officer.

Mr. Villeneuve, the floor is yours. Could you try to hold your remarks to about five minutes so we can have as much discussion as possible? Thank you very much.

[Michael Villeneuve, Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Nurses Association]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd first like to acknowledge the Algonquin Anishnaabeg peoples, from whose traditional lands I am speaking to you today.

My name is Mike Villeneuve and I am the CEO at the Canadian Nurses Association. I've worked in and around health systems for over 40 years, 37 of those as a registered nurse.

I would very much like to thank the committee for the opportunity to present recommendations from CNA, which is the national and global professional voice of Canadian nursing.

In this extraordinary global crisis, nurses, who in our country are the largest group of health care professionals, are playing an enormous role across the country. We're alarmed by the growing number of cases now being reported and we are especially concerned with the spread to indigenous and isolated communities and to vulnerable people. They are disproportionately affected.

Throughout the pandemic, we have learned important lessons. We've seen challenges with pandemic preparedness across the country and have witnessed the devastating effects of the disease in long-term care homes. We've also seen our health care system quickly adapting to the expansion of virtual care.

While our August submission recommends a suite of actions, I'd like to focus on three of them.

First, we strongly recommend that the federal government take a leadership role in redesigning what it means to age in our country. Despite the devastating impact in long-term care homes during the first months of the pandemic, the second wave is rehashing vulnerabilities in the sector. Even with lessons learned, staffing, supplies and physical plant issues remain critical.

To address these challenges CNA has called on the federal government to lead the development of national standards for institutional long-term care. We were encouraged to see new investments in the fall economic statement and national standards reflected in the Speech from the Throne, as well as helping people to age in place. We strongly encourage the committee to support the development of these standards.

Furthermore, it's critical that federal health transfers meet the needs of Canada's aging population. It was estimated that aging would drive about 20% of increases in health care spending over the next decade. We urge the committee to support a demographic top-up to the Canada health transfer, as the pandemic has only exacerbated the challenges older adults face. This would enhance the ability of provinces and territories to deliver care in the longer term, investing in that whole trajectory of home and community care, long-term care, and palliative and end-of-life care.

Our second recommendation relates to further enhancing pandemic preparedness. We must all remain focused in fighting the pandemic. It's nowhere near over. Despite the promises of a vaccine on the horizon, we will be in a chronic emergency for months to come. In a recent survey, nurses identified the supply of personal protective equipment as one of their top three concerns during the second wave of the pandemic. Investments in 2021 must ensure availability of PPE, capacity to conduct viral testing and contact tracing, and an equitable distribution of vaccines, especially to vulnerable groups.

Finally, CNA encourages the committee to support expanding virtual care. The sudden acceleration in virtual care has been a long-awaited shift for our health system. This is good. While barriers still exist, the role of virtual care should be scaled up. Virtual care can lower costs and improve access to health care, particularly for indigenous people and others in rural and remote areas, and people who struggle in any way to access primary care. However, to expand virtual care, fast and affordable Internet access needs to be made available to all, and here we know the government can exert a strong and helpful influence.

In closing, the COVID-19 pandemic has caused unparalleled disruptions to social, health and economic systems around the globe, as I don't need to tell any of you. We now have an opportunity, though, to bring about some essential transformations to our health care system and create a safer, healthier and more equitable society for all.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I will do my best to answer any questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you very much, Mr. Villeneuve. Again, thank you for your submission.

Now, from the Community Food Centres Canada, we have Mr. Saul, president and CEO.

Mr. Saul, the floor is yours.

[Nick Saul, President and Chief Executive Officer, Community Food Centres Canada]

Thank you, Chair. Good afternoon, and thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today. I hope you're all doing okay in these unsettled and unsettling times.

I am joined by my colleague Sasha McNicoll, who's our senior specialist on policy. We'll both be answering questions.

Community Food Centres Canada is a national organization that creates vibrant community food centres and programs in low-income neighbourhoods across the country. Through our more than 200 organizational partners, we support people living in poverty and food insecurity to eat well, find community and work towards social justice.

It will come as no surprise to this committee that COVID has exacerbated some of the deep social inequities that the communities we work in have grappled with for a long time. Food insecurity is up a shocking 39%, meaning that one in seven Canadians now struggles to put food on the table. This corroborates what we are hearing from our partners who have seen the needs in their communities skyrocket. For example, The Depot Community Food Centre in Montreal had to move into a hockey arena in order to meet the needs of people seeking support.

The federal government has responded to this emergency with a $200-million emergency food security fund, which, along with other private funds, has helped us provide good food for half a million Canadians. In the long term, however, we know that providing food through charity will not solve this problem. Reducing poverty by boosting incomes is the key to reducing food insecurity in Canada. For example, the Canada child benefit has reduced severe food insecurity among families with children by 30%. Upon reaching the age of 65 and becoming eligible for seniors benefits like old age security, the guaranteed income supplement and CPP, people's risks of food insecurity decrease by a full 50%.

It is now time to build on these achievements in order to create a just recovery from COVID and to continue the work toward a 50% reduction in poverty, as laid out in Canada's poverty reduction strategy.

Our pre-budget submission proposes two ways to help us get there. The first is to make the disability tax credit refundable. To this end, Community Food Centres Canada was pleased to see a Canada disability benefit included in the Speech from the Throne. There are 2.7 million Canadians living with severe or very severe disability. These Canadians are more likely to be unemployed, and 30% live below the low-income measure. Because the disability tax credit is non-refundable, however, it only serves to decrease tax owing and is therefore of little use to people with disabilities living on low incomes who pay no or little income tax. Making the disability tax credit refundable would provide low-income Canadians with severe and prolonged disabilities with up to $1,300 per year. This may not seem like a lot, but for a single person on disability support living in Ontario, it will represent a 9% increase in their income. The federal government should also look into increasing the disability tax credit.

Our second recommendation is to explore the creation of a tax credit for working-age adults. As I mentioned, the Canada child benefit and seniors benefits have decreased food insecurity among families with children and seniors, but for single adults, poverty has increased. They also make up 43% of all food-insecure Canadians. Working-age adults are increasingly being trapped in poverty by low-wage jobs and insufficient social assistance rates. Two-thirds of food-insecure people get most of their income from employment, but the kinds of jobs available do not pay enough to provide a comfortable and dignified life. Indeed, many of the top growing sectors over the last decade—including retail, accommodation and food services—provide the lowest-quality jobs in terms of wages and benefits.

Many low-income adults rely on provincial and territorial social assistance, which in no jurisdiction in Canada comes anywhere near the poverty line. In Ontario, for example, a single person on welfare receives $733 a month, which is about one-third of the poverty line. In order to be successful in reducing poverty by 50% by 2030, Canada's poverty reduction strategy will need to provide more significant support for single adults aged 18 to 64. A working-age tax credit that would bolster incomes for low-wage workers and people living on social assistance would also create a higher income floor beneath which no Canadian could fall.

For moral and economic reasons, we want to build a society focused on thriving, but we also want to do this because greater equity will help inoculate us against future shocks. Creating an income floor that no one in this country can fall below is the right thing to do. Making the disability tax credit refundable and developing a refundable working-age tax credit will have a significant material impact on this goal.

Again, thank you for the opportunity to be here today to discuss how to reduce food insecurity and poverty in Canada. Sasha and I look forward to answering any of your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you very much, Mr. Saul. You are all right on time. This is a good start.

We will turn to Skills Canada and Mr. Thorson.

[Shaun Thorson, Chief Executive Officer, Skills Canada]

Thank you, Mr. Chair,

Before I begin, I first want to acknowledge that I'm speaking from the unceded Algonquin Anishinaabe Territory.

I want to thank the committee for the opportunity to speak to you today.

Skills/Compétences Canada's mission is to encourage and support a pan-Canadian approach to promoting careers in the skilled trades and technologies to youth and their communities.

With Skills Canada member organizations in each of the provinces and territories, we're able to connect to more than 100,000 Canadian youth on an annual basis. With the help of our many public and private sector partners, including union training centres, technical institutes, polytechnics and community colleges, SCC is helping to address the skills gap issue that is touching many sectors across the country.

The activity that we are probably best known for is skills competitions. Through this activity, we put tools and materials in the hands of students in an effort to familiarize them with the many career options available. If you've not been to a skills competition, we demystify many of these occupations by hosting events in publicly accessible facilities where visitors can watch competitors prepare a four-course meal; build structures, including electrical and water services; repair vehicles; and create information technology networks, websites and much more. In addition, students from surrounding schools are able to participate in Try-a-Trade and technology activities.

As the country continues to deal with the impacts of COVID-19, we believe that a skills-based economy and skills-led recovery will contribute to the strengthening of our communities.

According to a national survey that we conducted in July, close to eight in 10 Canadians agreed that the COVID-19 pandemic brought to their attention the importance of the many essential workers in the skilled trades and technology sectors.

This increased awareness among Canadians of the many essential occupations in the skilled trades and technologies presents an opportunity to attract and create a diverse and inclusive workforce, which will strengthen the country.

Possible increases in domestic manufacturing, new infrastructure projects and the impact of technology all bring with them opportunities to return to pre-COVID-19 levels and see economic growth. To do this, Canada will require the right mix of skills to respond to these demands.

For these reasons, not only youth but—maybe even more importantly—career influencers such as parents, teachers and employers should be targeted with outreach. Building a diversified workforce for Canada requires parents to encourage their children to investigate many career options. It requires teachers and instructors to understand the apprenticeship system and Red Seal certification so they can provide relevant training, guidance and endorsement of these careers.

It also requires employers to hire apprentices and support the on-the-job training model that has been in existence since the Middle Ages.

Our survey in July also revealed that 46% of Canadians are mostly unfamiliar with the apprenticeship training system. This lack of knowledge undoubtedly contributes to our nation's challenge in recruiting people to these occupations.

Most Canadians understand how more traditional systems of education function, making it easier to endorse those learning models. Contrastingly, the apprenticeship model that encompasses 80% on-the-job and 20% in-school training is very different from the training education that is often based out of a single training institution.

In general, we are witnessing how the required skills in these industries are quickly changing, forcing us to contemplate the impact on our skills development strategy and how we can quickly adjust our training programs. In the context of the current pandemic and also due to our increasingly digitized world, skilled trades and technology occupations have never been so relevant and interesting.

As a result, it only makes sense for the federal government, through a variety of tailored approaches, to invest further in the awareness and promotion of such career paths. Along with its provincial and territorial partners, the federal government must look at supporting skills development and modern training opportunities that will realistically meet our future economic needs.

In closing, we recommend the following measures.

First, the federal government should fund the promotion and orientation of skilled trade and technology-based occupations, targeting under-represented youth and people in career transition, including women, indigenous peoples, persons with a disability, those from under-served communities and those who are part of the LGBTQS+ community.

Second, the federal government should fund national awareness initiatives aimed at engaging parents on how the apprenticeship training system in Canada works, on the importance of the essential skills and on recognizing the Red Seal endorsement acronym, RSE, as a standard of Red Seal completion in the skilled trades.

Third, the federal government should support the work required to identify current and emerging technologies and how those technologies are and will be applied in apprenticeship and technology-based occupation training models.

Last, the federal government should support the creation of a multisectoral skills strategy that links recommendations 1, 2 and 3 into an overall skills promotion and skills development approach linked to the skills that Canada needs now and will need in the future.

I will answer any questions the committee may have.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

We turn now to WaterPower Canada and Patrick Bateman, interim president.

[Patrick Bateman, Interim President, WaterPower Canada]

Good afternoon.

Mr. Chair, I would like to begin by thanking you, the clerk and the committee members for the opportunity to appear today on behalf of WaterPower Canada as part of the committee's pre-budget consultations.

Thanks also to the members of the committee and to all those contributing to this consultation for supporting and serving our communities during these challenging times.

I am coming to you today from the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin people, and I'm very grateful to also have the pleasure to work and live here.

WaterPower Canada is the national trade association that represents the producers of hydroelectricity and their suppliers of goods and services. Electricity is an essential service, and water power represents 60% of our total electricity production in Canada.

Our sector's track record for more than a century has been playing a major role in keeping Canada's lights on. Thanks to the preparedness and response of our members and our workforce, we've overseen the reliable operations of more than 500 water power generation stations throughout the pandemic. These continue to power critical services such as hospitals, communication networks and food supply chains across the nation.

In early March, as the reality of the pandemic set in, our sector was deep in preparations for the freshet, the spring thaw that places increased demands and pressure on our infrastructure. By mid-March, pandemic response plans and protocols were rapidly implemented. Only works critical for the safe, reliable and optimal operation of the generation fleet proceeded. All others were deferred.

Workplace practices in the office and in the field were dramatically overhauled to assure the health and safety of our employees and contractors. We're proud of our role in supporting Canada's pandemic response.

The government is currently directing emergency support where it is most urgently needed. We're still in the thick of the pandemic. Once the greatest danger of this crisis has passed, the economy will need a serious boost, and that must accomplish two things: getting Canadians back to work and addressing the climate crisis.

Canada is one of the few countries in the world uniquely positioned to move toward and beyond a 90% non-emitting electricity supply. We have a competitive advantage through our abundant, diverse, clean and renewable electricity resources, including water power. Building on these strengths, leveraging these existing competitive advantages, and creating the right conditions for investment will support recovery efforts and reinforce clean growth priorities.

Investments made by our sector in refurbishment and redevelopment of existing assets provides additional generation and storage capacity at a very low unit cost and with a minimal incremental environmental footprint. New transmission capacity can connect regions with abundant clean and renewable energy supply to those that are phasing out coal. The water stored in our reservoirs can be leveraged as the battery that balances supply and demand.

Projects such as Pumped Storage Hydro, which uses water and gravity to store and generate electricity, and Green Hydrogen, for example, can ensure the reliable integration of variable renewable energy resources, such as wind and solar.

These potential investments represent tens of thousands of new jobs and the avoidance of hundreds of millions of tonnes of greenhouse gas emissions annually. As our brief submitted to the committee in August outlined, there are ways to create the conditions necessary to move clean and renewable energy projects forward.

One is designing and implementing strong measures for decarbonization of Canada's electricity supply. We welcome the introduction of Bill C-12 and references in the fall economic statement on the importance of strategic transmission interties.

A second way is to design and implement strong measures for fuel-switching, switching from fossil fuels to clean and renewable electricity in transport, industry and buildings. We welcome the measures in the fall economic statement related to electrification and we anticipate the clean fuel standard.

A third is to ensure that the implementation of federal legislation does not introduce any undue or overly burdensome constraints on water power producers so that the regulatory environment does not impede investments in existing or new projects.

Despite our abundance of clean electricity, only 20% of the energy we use is electric. Growth in demand for electrification, combined with stringent and stable long-term climate policy, is critical for our sector to maximize our investments in the coming years and to help power Canada's recovery, a recovery that will be durable, national and renewable.

Thank you again for the opportunity to appear. I look forward to addressing any questions the committee may have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you all for your presentations and for keeping them so tight. We have your recommendations in the paper as well.

We'll turn to the first round of questions. I might remind committee members that because we're not in our usual one-and-a-half-hour hearing schedule and we have only an hour, there will be four six-minute questions and two five-minute questions. That will likely end it. If people want to split their time, just let me know.

We'll start with Mr. Kelly for six minutes.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all of our witnesses. I'll see if I can get a question or two in with each of you. I'll start with Skills Canada.

Mr. Thorson, you spoke of skills deficits. Could you elaborate on some of the specific industries and needs that are not currently being met in the labour market and the skills most needed in our labour force that are not being supplied?

[Shaun Thorson]

I think when we're talking about skills gaps, we're talking about the correct skills that are required for the different occupations. Targeting that specifically across the country is sometimes difficult, because there are regional differences that really impact those occupations. For example, those occupations include steamfitters and pipefitters. Electricians are also in demand. For welders in particular, there are special welding level categories in which there are demands.

However, I think the more important element here is that we really want to make sure students, young people and the population in general understand that there are these different career options available.

As I mentioned, during the pandemic and especially in the spring, when we were really relying on transportation systems to get food to grocery stores, on people to repair those vehicles, and on our communication systems, and when we also had to make sure electrical grids were functioning properly so we could all function from our homes, it was very apparent to people that we definitely need people in these skilled occupations. It is challenging across the country.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

You mentioned specifically that your recommendation was that the federal government provide funding, and then you went general and said it was for programs aimed at under-represented populations in various trades and the retraining of workers. Were there specific programs you wanted to elaborate on or mention in the time you have with us?

[Shaun Thorson]

I think we definitely need to identify success stories and individuals who are representative of diversity and an inclusive workforce. We want to make sure people in the community can identify with someone.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

You're not identifying a particular program, though, that you're looking for?

[Shaun Thorson]

We're not identifying a specific program, but I think our goal when we're trying to engage these people is to put tools and materials in the hands of young people and parents.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

I'll move to Mr. Saul, if I may.

You mentioned in your statement that aid measures alone will not cure food insecurity in the long run. I certainly would agree with that. Regarding the tremendous demands placed on your member organizations during the pandemic, I think no one will be surprised that returning as many people as safely and as quickly as possible to the workforce will undoubtedly alleviate some of this demand.

Moving to one of your specific recommendations on the disability tax credit, I'll let you comment a little further on that. In fact, I'll just turn that over to you, if you want to elaborate on that first recommendation and how you see that working, maybe in concert with existing funding for disabled Canadians.

[Nick Saul]

I'm going to let my colleague Sasha talk about the disability tax credit, but I'll first respond very quickly about our concerns around charity.

Food will not solve hunger; only income will. If you remember anything from our comments, it's that. We need to ensure people have enough money in their pockets to make the decisions they need to make. As I mentioned in my remarks, 65% of people who are food-insecure in this country have an attachment to the labour market, which speaks to how low-wage those jobs are and how precarious they are. Four and a half million Canadians struggle with food insecurity, meaning they're completely unsure and concerned about where their next meal is going to come from. The only way we're going to solve that is to focus on income measures.

I'll pass this quickly to Sasha to talk about the disability tax credit.

[Sasha McNicoll, Senior Specialist, Policy, Community Food Centres Canada]

I think, as Nick mentioned, people living on disability supports in Ontario.... If you're a single person, you're making about $1,100 a month, which is clearly not enough to cover the cost of living, let alone the increased costs that often come with living in disability. Making the DTC refundable would be a huge help to people who are living on provincial and territorial disability support.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Sorry, Pat, we're a little over time.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Was it not a six-minute round?

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Yes, it is. You've been six minutes and 20 seconds. How time flies.

We'll turn to Ms. Dzerowicz and Mr. Fragiskatos, who are splitting their time.

Go ahead, Ms. Dzerowicz.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

Please cut me off at three minutes, although I have my timer. To everyone, please be as succinct as possible in your answers.

First I'll give a huge thanks to all of you for your excellent and important presentations. If we don't get to you today, know that your recommendations have been very much heard.

My first question is to Community Food Centres Canada.

Thank you once again for coming before our committee. I have two quick questions for you. I hear loud and clear your disability tax credit recommendation and your tax credit for a single working-age adult. Do you have a figure for us about how much each of these tax credits would cost our government and how many Canadians each one of those would help?

[Nick Saul]

I'm going to let Sasha take this.

[Sasha McNicoll]

For the disability tax credit, the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives has estimated that it would be about $370 million a year in order to make that refundable for the people who are currently receiving it, which I believe is about 1.2 million Canadians. However, if it were made refundable, it's likely that people who could apply for it and haven't applied for it who are eligible would then apply for it. With some behaviour change, it might be more expensive than that, but it's somewhere around $370 million a year.

For the working-age tax credit, this is not something that there's a lot of research on, so we don't a have a figure for that, although it's something that we are about to do research in, and we'll update you with a figure when we have one.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you so much for that.

I'm going to turn my attention to Mr. Thorson.

Mr. Thorson, about 600,000 Canadians are still looking for a job right now. Almost 80% have gone back to their old jobs, but we have also heard that there are a number of jobs in areas like construction, health care, food processing, agriculture and a few other areas. There seems to be a skills mismatch. Would you agree with that? Why do you think that is, and how do we correct it?