Finance Committee on Oct. 10th, 2023

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Again, thank you to each of you for being here and taking the time. It's a pleasure to hear from folks directly in each of our provinces.

I come from western New Brunswick. My electoral district is Tobique—Mactaquac and, of course, what I'm hearing in our region is very similar. A lot of it echoes what we're hearing here in beautiful Prince Edward Island.

Obviously, on some of the common themes that are emerging no matter where we will be going or where this committee goes, I'm sure you're going to be hearing about the obvious increase in the soaring costs of doing business, the increased cost of living and affordability. These are recurring themes that keep coming up.

Then, of course, you get on to the overall pressures that are facing Canadians right now, with rents doubling, mortgage rates going up and doubling, and then the overall cost that affects home heating and affects everything that's trucked and shipped and hauled and on our grocery shelves. I'm sure you're all hearing about that every time you go to the grocery store. People are noticing the huge difference. It's affecting the amount of disposable income people have left at the end of the day—how much is left over after all the bills are paid and all the rents and mortgages are paid. There's not as much left to be putting into other things, and that will affect the small businesses. That does affect the overall health of the economy.

We're hearing from the folks who are directly on the front lines of this and who have been impacted—the businesses that are being directly affected and those in the harvesting industries and in construction. You're all feeling the impacts. I would like to get just a bit more insight into this from you today.

We've been hearing about these increased costs. We're hearing testimony across the country from Canadians who are being directly impacted. To address this, what do you feel has to be done expeditiously by the government to get these costs down and to reduce some of the pressure that's coming onto our businesses? We heard from the head of the chamber here, Kim Griffin, about a 30% increase in the cost of doing business, while at the same time there's a 50% increase in demand. With those kinds of downward pressures, what do we need to do expeditiously to get relief?

We'll start with you, Ms. Griffin, and then we'll go to Mr. Sanderson and Mr. MacPherson.

[Kim Griffin]

Thank you.

I believe that percentage came directly from construction and housing. I just wanted to clarify that for the record.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Yes. I'm sorry.

[Kim Griffin]

I guess that for us our number one issue is the rising cost of doing business, as you mentioned, coupled with that of the labour force. It's not one prescription. I think we need to sit down and we need to collaborate and talk about what is really a winning solution for our markets. I think you're in a very unique position where you can help with this committee and with the federal government.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Sanderson.

[Sam Sanderson]

That's a great question about the rising costs and how we're going to get them down and what the process involved is with industry being in such demand. For 20 years plus, we did not send our people to construction. We sent our youth elsewhere. The trades were very heavily impacted. There needs to be a lot more work done on creating opportunities to build in a supply and demand market. When it comes right down to it, it's labour, labour, labour. Money is never going to solve the problem. It's going to be people.

I presented in Vancouver in 2022 to the Canadian Construction Association. I talked about how 40 years ago we had 3.7 children per household, and now we have 1.3 children. It now takes 1.5 people to do the same amount of work one person did. It's not money. It's people. Until we get those people to continue building and to build at a faster rate, a greater rate, or maybe at a different rate or in a different style, again, the importance of bringing industry to the table is key to the success of creating more inventory.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you. It's about making sure they are there on the front end of the process, absolutely.

Mr. MacPherson, I know, having heard from you several times at the fisheries committee, that obviously there is pressure on the harvesters. The input costs have continued to soar and, with the after-effects of Fiona, funds have been put in place to help with infrastructure.

I'm wondering how quickly those funds are being released for the reconstruction of the wharves that are necessary and to make sure that those wharves are ready and able to sustain the industry for the future so that there is resiliency built back into it.

How are they doing in accessing those funds to get those needed wharf reconstructions done? Is that happening at a rapid rate? Have those funds gotten to the people who most need them on the front lines of this?

[Ian MacPherson]

I think from our perspective we'll have a little better handle on that in the next few months, since there was such focus to get the wharves just functional for the spring. I do know that there was some overlap with programs. If you didn't apply for this one, you weren't able to apply for another one, and things like that.

Here's a prime example: If we're going to prepare for the next hurricane, let's sit down and talk about what would work from a funding perspective and the timelines on which those funds need to go out the door.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Bragdon.

Now we go to MP Morrissey for five minutes.

Go ahead, please.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Thank you, Chair.

I'm from the beautiful riding of Egmont in Prince Edward Island, the greenest riding in the country with the largest infrastructure in green energy.

Mr. MacPherson, you're already in a pilot project with diesel-electric conversion. What could government do to enhance that? I believe it is the future.

[Ian MacPherson]

At this point, the cost of the units is very high. It is coming down, but at the end of the day, I think if we want people to seriously look at that technology, much as the case in the auto sector....

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

It would be the case that the technology could actually reduce carbon-emitting fuel consumption.

[Ian MacPherson]

That's correct.

Another area we're looking at is less-expensive technology. There may be a combination of two or three things that could be done for less money to achieve savings.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Okay. Thank you.

I want to get to Ms. Burge, but I have one final question, because I do agree.

Could you briefly explain to the committee the importance of financing a reduction in fishing efforts in terms of the number of species, Mr. MacPherson? Could you explain to the committee, briefly, the benefit of reducing the effort to pursue certain species? You referenced licence reduction. Could you briefly tell the committee the benefit of that?

[Ian MacPherson]

It's not only from an operational standpoint, the fewer traps in the water, depending on the fishery, the greater the net decrease in fuel consumption and reduction in carbon. It also makes the existing fishers more viable. I think that's the real problem we have on Prince Edward Island right now. We are extremely dependent on lobster. We have a few secondary species, but it's a challenge. A couple of these fisheries are only a couple of days.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Currently, Mr. MacPherson, the ministry is not budgeted to do licensing reduction. I think it's important that we recognize that and do that.

[Ian MacPherson]

We agree.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

I want to go to Ms. Burge and Ms. Altass on the guaranteed basic income.

Could you articulate to the committee what, in the pilot, you would look at determining from a data perspective over the five-year period? What in that five-year period would you glean that you are not currently aware of?

If you're going to do it anywhere in the country, I agree that Prince Edward Island is the ideal jurisdiction in which to do it.

Please be brief, because I do have another question.

[Trish Altass]

Thank you, Mr. Morrissey.

That is exactly the right question. In fact, evaluation needs to be taken into consideration at the start of any demonstration project and throughout it. That is absolutely critical.

What we often think of when we think about the evaluation with basic income is more the behavioural component: How will it impact our labour force participation? What impacts will it have on the lives of individuals? All of these are very important. That would require looking at quantitative data in partnership with Statistics Canada but also doing a good qualitative analysis that is independent and taken throughout the process.

Importantly we should not overlook the opportunity to understand the interaction between the provincial programs and federal programs that you would have with a full provincial P.E.I. program. That would really be key to this evaluation. I think that whether or not eliminating poverty would be to the benefit of our economy and society is no longer in question. We know that there would be many benefits for individuals, communities and families from eliminating poverty from our society to ensure that everybody has enough to meet their basic needs, no matter what.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

I believe, Ms. Burge, I may have a few seconds left.

What is the estimated cost implication of the pilot? In the national scheme of things, I think it would be relatively small.

[Marie Burge]

First of all, we don't call it a pilot. It's a demonstration.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

I'm sorry. It's a demonstration project.

[Marie Burge]

Yes. I think I have....

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

That's fine. If you have—

[Trish Altass]

I have to find it here. I have the report from the Special Committee on Poverty. I don't want to give you inaccurate information, but those—